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messy showdown - beginner violin vs: beginner piano
Now I know why my violin teacher was extremely unhappy when I told her I was starting to learn to play piano.
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bocaholly
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December 30, 2018 - 11:50 am
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My 65th b-day present to myself was a piano thinking that it would be much easier to get a grasp of some theory (intervals, chords...) in support of my violin learning. My violin teacher was disapproving ... more like horrified! I didn't get it at all. 

Well, now I get her skepticism ... I have 8 months of violin learning under my belt and it's extremely sloppy and tentative... improving but messy, very messy. I've had the piano for 3 weeks (2 weeks of lessons) and, warts and all, it sounds much less cringe-worthy... almost cute. No, I'm not going to drop learning to play violin but I'm now guessing that's what my teacher was worried about.

Here's short back-to-back example of what I mean. OK, I might have been able to produce a slightly cleaner version of Hunter's Chorus if I had tried 20 recordings (1:20 is about my score for getting through any piece 'properly') but this humbling video certainly makes my point. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n1dr.....z.mp4?dl=0

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Gordon Shumway
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December 30, 2018 - 11:56 am
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I'm with you! I see a lot of harmonica players online asking about circle of fifths and other theory-related things, and my answer is always the same. Buy a keyboard!

Andrew

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bocaholly
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December 30, 2018 - 12:06 pm
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@Gordon Shumway 

You play the harmonica too! Sounds like you play more instruments than languages you speak... and that's a few from what I've gathered :-)

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DennisS
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December 30, 2018 - 12:10 pm
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I did the same thing a couple of years ago - got a electronic keyboard so that I could "work out" melodies from sheet music.  Once I "got" the tune in my head, it was easier  to play it on the violin.  After a while though, I found that it wasn't necessary.  Learning piano will definitely help with theory, though.

Actually, you sound good on both fronts, especially with only 8 months on the violin.  See this video, which illustrates the point about violin vs. piano very well

Love those guys!

If I don't have time for a short post, I'll write a long post - (adapted from Mark Twain)

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bocaholly
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December 30, 2018 - 12:20 pm
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roflol

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Gordon Shumway
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bocaholly said
@Gordon Shumway 

You play the harmonica too! Sounds like you play more instruments than languages you speak... and that's a few from what I've gathered :-)   

I read them, I don't speak them, there's a big difference!

No, I did a little blues harp 10 years ago, but I'm not a willing harp player. At the uke club they've got me playing all the harp and horn bits (on the same harp) in Van Morrison's Bright Side of the Road, but I don't enjoy it - it's too demanding, and when you go wrong, recovery is too difficult. And there'a fiddle part in it too! I don't want to be practising harp when I could be practising the fiddle! I'd rather just do Western Swing numbers on the fiddle and leave the harps at home. Although we do have a couple of simpler harp numbers that I enjoy, such as Glendale Train and How Sweet it is (to be loved by you).

Andrew

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Shane "Chicken" Wang

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December 30, 2018 - 2:22 pm
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@bocaholly you getting really good, move over Elton, Holly is coming to town.

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bocaholly
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That's us... me and my bud, Elton

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BillyG
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December 30, 2018 - 3:06 pm
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LOL !

Yup, I guess it's all about "how you come in to playing the fiddle" (or any fretless instrument).  If violin is your first excursion into playing music, there's a hell of a lot going on. 

It all comes down to individual differences I guess - when I was but a lad of 7 or so, my old man brought me home a piano accordion !   I had never asked for, or suggested I wanted one - he had seen me tapping my feet and whistling to various traditional Scottish dance band tunes on the radio (we're talking around 1959/60 or so) - and must have thought I'd like the instrument !

I had SO much fun with it, and figured out (from library books, no inter-webby-thing back then of course) how scales worked, how chords were formed, learned basic stuff about "modes" and how there's really no huge difference between major, minor, or any other modal scale really...   

But then, a few years later we were in the 60's, and the radio was full of this rock, pop and guitar things :)    So I got a cheap guitar...  :) and so the story continues...

Anyway - I think the point I'm trying to make is that although never actually committed to intentionally studying music, over all these years, sure I've messed with probably half a dozen, or more, instruments - and truly - to my mind - the fretless are the most difficult to really master - especially the ones with bows!  (Fretless bass is super fun !!!  At least you don;t need a bow !  hahaha)

Your video and associated text in the post is very telling @bocaholly - it is indeed and thanks for sharing that - although I sure hope it doesn't sow the seeds of self-doubt in some beginners.....!

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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samropin

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December 30, 2018 - 3:22 pm
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I started with both violin and piano recently and am very happy with my progress on piano, but am struggling with violin.  I’m going to keep going for a little longer with violin, but don’t like the way I sound.  

I prefer the mellow sound of the piano, wide tonal range, and ability to play chords and counterpoint.  Also, with violins, the buying process is confusing (the same violins and bows from China are sold under various names, and it’s not really clear what you get for the next increment in price).  

On the other hand, for piano, it’s just about getting a used Yamaha or Casio keyboard off Craigslist.  Also, sheet music books for piano are readily available, and MuseScore makes it easy too.  Piano sounds complete on its own, but solo violin doesn’t really sound good to me.  

Sorry to rant, but yes, I basically agree with you, about piano being easier to learn.  I’m  hanging on trying to learn violin, but feel discouraged and came here looking for help, but after reading your post, I’m thinking that I may be wasting my time with violin.  I’m waiting until I complete my first 364-days to decide.  By then, however, I may be a pro (well, not really) on piano.

I decided to learn piano because Alison Sparrow teaches both instruments on YouTube (the online piano and violin tutor) from the U.K.  I like Alison’s teaching style, but thought I’d supplement with Fiddlerman, because the Violin Noobie on YouTube said she learned here all by herself.

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bocaholly
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December 30, 2018 - 4:21 pm
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@samropin 
Of course we're not wasting our time learning the violin!

I posted that crummy Hunter's Chorus rendition of mine to make what seems to be an obvious point to you and others (one instrument makes it MUCH harder to produce a pleasing sound than the other.)

Also posted it to get over myself. I just looked back at the first videos I posted 4 months ago. Truth is, I don't see the leaps and bounds I would have liked to, sigh.violin-student
Conclusion: I'm going to have to do something that's very uncharacteristic of me ... be patient and keep working at it mindfully.

Sam... stick around. This is a good place to blow off some steam and reinforce your initial motivation. And if you ever post a video, you can count of receiving positive, constructive and encouraging feedback. 

Not like:
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DennisS
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December 30, 2018 - 4:54 pm
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BillyG said

 when I was but a lad of 7 or so, my old man brought me home a piano accordion !   I had never asked for, or suggested I wanted one -

Billy - I started the same way.  My parents went to a party when I was around 7 years old and saw an accordion player.  They were impressed that he could carry a tune and accompany himself, so they decided that I would play the accordion.  Took lessons for over 5 years and got pretty decent at it - at which point the idea of playing an accordion became an embarrassment among my peers!  However, it did teach me to read music and play keyboard with my right hand.

As soon as I was old enough to leave the house, I sold the accordion to raise money for my first motorcycle...   ....but that's another story.  Also went through guitar and piano phases, before finally settling on the violin as my retirement challenge/passion/avocation.  The thing that pushed me over the edge was reading "Playing with Fire" by Tess Gerritsen.

Obviously, with any keyboard, you press a key and get a note.  Not so easy with the violin, and the quality of the note and sound takes some time to develop.  Lots of fun, though.

If I don't have time for a short post, I'll write a long post - (adapted from Mark Twain)

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mookje
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Great job @bocaholly to learn the piano, it’s a beautiful instrument and you played it very well in such a short time ? And well done with the violin too! Thanks for sharing Holly. Lots of fun with your new journey ? 

 Life isn’t about waiting for the storm to pass. It’s about dancing in the rain!!

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Gordon Shumway
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December 31, 2018 - 1:39 am
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Somewhere there must be an analysis of how the two instruments compare, and whether one is harder than the other.

As a beginner, I know that the violin is more technical to start with than the piano, but then I assume it will level out. Otoh, it won't level out if you go on to Paganini caprices and so on.

Otoh, the piano isn't about pressing a key and music comes out. Try playing a 4-part Bach fugue and making each line sing independently! Listen to Glenn Goold playing the Goldberg variations.

People make similar comparisons between languages. Something you'll see is "English is easy to begin with and impossible to perfect, whereas German is impossible to begin with and easy to perfect." Ha, I understand that one, and it's not untrue.

But something that's untrue is that Italian is easy. Italian has 7 or 8 word-suffixes indicating size or beauty, and each word has correct suffixes and incorrect ones, and the size ones can be flattering or insulting, depending. Use the wrong one to the wrong person about the wrong thing and you'll be very friendless. Ignore them and you may as well be speaking pigeon Italian.

So every language is as difficult as every other (socio-linguistically speaking). How do we compare piano and violin? Probably every instrument is as difficult as every other. No, maybe not - I even know a violist who admits her instrument was a cop-out, lol!

(Sorry, only got 2 hours' sleep. waffling. And I will buy a viola one day)

Andrew

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BillyG
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December 31, 2018 - 1:57 am
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Welcome to the forum @DennisS !

DennisS said ......

at which point the idea of playing an accordion became an embarrassment among my peers!  

roflol concertina-4198facepalm- oh - I know exactly!!!!! 

However, it did teach me to read music and play keyboard with my right hand.

Exactly!

As soon as I was old enough to leave the house, I sold the accordion to raise money for my first motorcycle...   ....but that's another story. ...

 LOL !   Yeah - I recall bringing back my first guitar on a train from Inverness - I bought it with cash earned from summer holiday jobs - I was probably 13, or just turning 14 then.  I did keep the accordion, and, it still got occasional use until I left for university.  At that time, my father (who didn't play any instrument at all, although he was always whistling tunes, indeed, some he made up) moved the instrument into one of the outside sheds.  When I got home the following summer, dampness had got at the wood-glue and the thing fell apart in my hands !!!!

 And yup - we hear a lot about the term "Violin Shaped Object" - to my mind (and it's just my opinion, nothing more), a lot of the very clever electronic keyboards with their pressure and velocity sensitive keyboards, not to mention the plethora of inbuilt FX are no more pianos than, well.... put-your-own-words-here.. :)    They are to my mind PSOs (Piano shaped objects).   Now - as I said - don't misunderstand me - of course there is room for such instruments, of course there is - in fact I own two - and they are immense fun to use - a lot of the synth voices are pretty damn cool - I just don't regard them as "real pianos" is all  :)  

Enjoy the forum Dennis, and your new passion in retirement!

And @samropin - I truly understand your sense of discouragement - you were not "ranting" LOL - it's all good!  And my words above about a PSO are not intended to be derogatory about keyboards!   As a first instrument, violin can be extremely challenging.  It can often feel as if instead of progressing, you're getting worse, and these moments can feel like hell - but as Sir Winston Churchill said "When you're going through hell..... keep going" devil-violin [ you'll come out the other side ] 

Anyway - samropin - whatever your final choice of instrument, I wish you success!  Nothing more pleasing than making and playing music thumbs-up

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Gordon Shumway
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December 31, 2018 - 2:13 am
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DennisS said
the idea of playing an accordion became an embarrassment among my peers! 

Peer pressure can be good or bad. You have to be yourself among your peers. Look at Vivian Stanshall ("the only teddy boy to speak the Queen's English"). 

I'm basically a classical musician who has taken a superficial interest in pop music since the mid 60s, but never really settled upon anything in particular. Peer-pressure tends to dictate what I like, and every now and then a change of peers can be refreshing. That sounds callous, but my school friends all became heavy drug users, and I couldn't follow them, so I had to give them the boot eventually, and that made for an interesting change in musical scenery that felt like a burden had been lifted from my shoulders.

That was about 15 years ago when I found I could listen to anything I liked without anyone telling me it was good or bad.

Now my peers (one of whom deliberately took up ukulele aged 13 when all his peers took up guitar) mean I like a lot of 1930s and 1940s popular music which I'd never thought of listening to before.

I had never liked folk music (except for things like Tim Buckley, if you call that folk), but one of my uke peers is a bassist who is playing at Cropredy next year, so I have hopes his group will want a fiddler one day. However, normally very effusive, the only time he has ever blanked anything I've said was on the two occasions when I suggested his group might need a fiddler. Lol! Obviously the only way forward is for me to get good enough to make him change his mind.

Andrew

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BillyG
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December 31, 2018 - 2:31 am
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thumbs-up

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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bocaholly
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December 31, 2018 - 7:47 am
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Gordon Shumway said
Somewhere there must be an analysis of how the two instruments compare, and whether one is harder than the other. ...

... As a beginner, I know that the violin is more technical to start with than the piano, but then I assume it will level out. ...

As you correctly hint in your language learning analogy, it's a lot about context. For a bloody beginner, because it's easier to produce a decent piano sound, it's making it possible for me hear the music between the simple notes. On the violin, I'm so busy trying to make that sound happen (rubbing my tummy while patting my head) that when I record myself, I hear that I'm missing the musical point. The jury is out on whether that "hearing the music" on the piano will have a positive influence on my violin efforts. I think, yes (that's the optimist in me speaking this morning :-)

...People make similar comparisons between languages. Something you'll see is "English is easy to begin with and impossible to perfect, whereas German is impossible to begin with and easy to perfect." 

... So every language is as difficult as every other (socio-linguistically speaking). How do we compare piano and violin? ...

Back to the idea of context: If you want to speak French in France with the locals, you'd better have the equivalent of your ABRSM 8 under your belt or you'll get blank stares. In Germany, folks are happy to chat with you and your Suzuki Book 1 German anywhere you go (if they don't switch to their very competent English first, that is :-) It's great to learn anything at any level but you need to find the opportunities to use it, to improve it. Some contexts make that much easier. 

Here, for my puroses, I'd say violin has it's plus points. Much more accessible ops to get out there carrying your little violin and play with others (MeetUps, community orchestras...) 

Another language/music learning analogy: The more languages you learn, the easier it gets to pick up new languages. Same with musical instruments, no?

... Probably every instrument is as difficult as every other. No, maybe not - I even know a violist who admits her instrument was a cop-out, lol!

Case in point for the context argument. Bet she was told that she had much better chances getting a seat in an orchestra with the viola rather than with the violin. Never touched a viola but I'm pretty sure it's not easier to learn than violin... maybe even more difficult due to its size.) So to stretch the analogy (no excuse for me, I had a good night sleep) playing viola would be like speaking German rathar than French... both equally challenging for an adult English speaker to pick up... but it's so much easier to find German speakers willing to let you in on their conversations for starters.
coffee1Time for a second latte. Good morning everyone!

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Gordon Shumway
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Once or twice my teacher has said to me "why did you adjust your pitch just then?" to which the obvious answer is, "because I was out of tune," but yesterday I recorded myself, and those pitch adjustments that sound fine to me as I'm playing sound absolutely horrible on a recording!

Andrew

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wtw
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bocaholly said

Never touched a viola but I'm pretty sure it's not easier to learn than violin...

Indeed, to me it looks like it's exactly equivalent (I'm using mostly pedagogic tools made for violin - methods, videos, … - because there are quite a lot more for violin than viola. In the end you just have to transpose the music). Well, maybe not exactly the same concerning posture and the "force" needed to make the strings sound, but there's not much difference on technique.

 

And I'll agree with you concerning French people not being too helpful with strangers :D even if I can't compare with the German or others.

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