Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Cross Tuning on the Fiddle
Origins
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (20 votes) 
Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
March 27, 2022 - 5:10 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 4713
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Seems the term, "Open Tuning" gets thrown around quite a bit, but my trying to find out exactly what it is - well, finding it illusive. 

At tabwrite by musicatt.com - their list has 2 'open' tunings (G & D). 

The Alternate Tunings Menu for the Violin seems to be missing.

I dislike giving anyone a thumbs down for a video, so just want to point out my frustration with this short video clip about "Metis Fiddle Open Tuning" by Amber Rische Nicholas.  I can tell it's lower, but it's ridiculous to expect a beginner to tell what this 'open' tuning is from this clip!  It's from 4 years ago with nothing recent, so not going to ask her! 

If any of you have super hearing, let me know. (lol)

Metis Fiddle Open Tuning - Amber Rische Nicholas

According to "The Metis Fiddle with Trent Freeman and Ry Moran" video, classic Metis tuning is cross-tuned, AEAC# (calico or devil's). 

For easier reference to the info in Chris Haigh's video - here's the link to his written article: 

Cross Tuning On The Fiddle - Chris Haigh

Irish & Scottish                   

AAAE - ADAE - AEAE - Low & High, also  

Norwegian 

ADAE - ADF#E - AEAE - low 'D' DDAE - AEAC# 

Old Time  

ADAE - AEAC# (Metis) - AEAD - AEAE - DDAD - FCGD (Cajun) - GDAD - GDGB - GDGD 

(edited) PLUS I found (posted earlier) FCFC is used.  At the Fiddle Hangout, I found: GCGD recommended for tunes in the key of C, and EBF#C# used for Old Time Country Blues!

Baroque  

I also like to keep in mind that standard Baroque tuning nowadays is  F#C#G#D# (half step low) 

 

Slippery-Hill - has some GREAT tune collections AND TUNES LISTED by common tuning - with audio! 

ADAE

AEAC# (plus one GDGB)

AEAE

DDAD

GDAD

GDGD

 

...any info on what "Open Tuning" is - for the Metis video clip, would be appreciated. 😊 

- Emily

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
March 27, 2022 - 5:30 pm
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 2526
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

at :25 theres that sound that i associate with some of the nordic tunes so im saying its calico but its a swag.

i dont do cross tuning at all really.   im having a time keeping the banjo tunings straight 🤔😔

 

ADDED LATER

@elcbk i add these not to detract but as a reference to your tuning question.  i dont know for sure but listen to this...especially at the beginning and it sounds the same on the high strings.  

 

i think grigsbys hornpipe old time tune is in calico usually also.  bruce molsky plays it out there but i couldnt find a video where it said the tuning for sure.  anyway...giving it a try.. cant say i know for sure.   

did you message her and ask?

Avatar
stringy
Members

Regulars
March 27, 2022 - 6:00 pm
Member Since: August 23, 2020
Forum Posts: 1393
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
43sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

gdad and adad is used in Irish on bouzouki an banjo at times

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
March 28, 2022 - 9:27 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 4713
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ELCBK said
Seems the term, "Open Tuning" gets thrown around quite a bit, but my trying to find out exactly what it is - well, finding it illusive. 

At tabwrite by musicatt.com - their list has 2 'open' tunings (G & D). 

I dislike giving anyone a thumbs down for a video, so just want to point out my frustration with this short video clip about "Metis Fiddle Open Tuning" by Amber Rische Nicholas.  I can tell it's lower, but it's ridiculous to expect a beginner to tell what this 'open' tuning is from this clip!  It's from 4 years ago with nothing recent, so not going to ask her! 
 

According to "The Metis Fiddle with Trent Freeman and Ry Moran" video, classic Metis tuning is cross-tuned, AEAC# (calico or devil's). 

...any info on what "Open Tuning" is - for the Metis video clip, would be appreciated. 😊 

- Emily

@ABitRusty -

THANK YOU! 

Confirmed what Trent Freeman said about using AEAC# for Metis Fiddling, in his video (and he didn't call it "Open Tuning", either).  I should've included his video link, but it was nowhere near as good as the Old Time video you provided for listening. 

I can hear it VERY clearly in your example! 

Still haven't found where AEAC# is called "Open Tuning", except Amber's clip. 

Really bugs me, because I've heard quite a few people use that term, all with different meaning!  To me, it's just as frustrating as someone telling what key they play in, but don't mention they've cross-tuned! 😳🤯  

Does "Open Tuning" relate to only one specific tuning for guitar or banjo? 

...just wondering if that's the reason. 

 

@stringy -

Thank you!

Makes for interesting possibilities. 

Know of any specific examples where GDAD and ADAD are used for Irish tunes? 

 

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/75/8b/e3/758be3a35b4fd07f1286997b39e91f54--machine-embroidery-embroidery-designs.jpg?nii=t

 

- Emily

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
March 28, 2022 - 9:56 am
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 2526
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@elcbk the term open tuning i feel means the open strings will sound a chord.  in the case of calico an Amaj A, C#, E

standard tuning youll have root 5th but not a whole chord.  some of the other tunings only provide root/5ths likw gdgd aeae which can be maj or minor

maybe not correct but how i look at it

banjo and guitar have several open tunings like that as well..  just gives a different flavor and not neccessary to play tunes...but can make it sound more interesting i guess. possibly easier to work in certain modes/keys.  all that up for debate depending on who it is i suppose. 

alot has to do with the sound open strings will be making while you play notes and how you can use them for drones and stuff like that.  thinking calico tuning probably wouldnt be a 1st choice for a tune in G if doing cross tuning.  gdgd a better choice.  but who knows..give it a try and see what you think. dunno

cross tuning..havent seen alot in my short time playing in any irish setting.. thats mainly a fretted instrument thing which youll see/hear alot.  DADGAD really popular for irish guitar backing in irish..celtic type stuff.

Avatar
stringy
Members

Regulars
March 28, 2022 - 3:25 pm
Member Since: August 23, 2020
Forum Posts: 1393
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
46sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

ELCBK said

ELCBK said

Seems the term, "Open Tuning" gets thrown around quite a bit, but my trying to find out exactly what it is - well, finding it illusive. 

At tabwrite by musicatt.com - their list has 2 'open' tunings (G & D). 

I dislike giving anyone a thumbs down for a video, so just want to point out my frustration with this short video clip about "Metis Fiddle Open Tuning" by Amber Rische Nicholas.  I can tell it's lower, but it's ridiculous to expect a beginner to tell what this 'open' tuning is from this clip!  It's from 4 years ago with nothing recent, so not going to ask her! 

 

According to "The Metis Fiddle with Trent Freeman and Ry Moran" video, classic Metis tuning is cross-tuned, AEAC# (calico or devil's). 

...any info on what "Open Tuning" is - for the Metis video clip, would be appreciated. 😊 

- Emily

@ABitRusty -

THANK YOU! 

Confirmed what Trent Freeman said about using AEAC# for Metis Fiddling, in his video (and he didn't call it "Open Tuning", either).  I should've included his video link, but it was nowhere near as good as the Old Time video you provided for listening. 

I can hear it VERY clearly in your example! 

Still haven't found where AEAC# is called "Open Tuning", except Amber's clip. 

Really bugs me, because I've heard quite a few people use that term, all with different meaning!  To me, it's just as frustrating as someone telling what key they play in, but don't mention they've cross-tuned! 😳🤯  

Does "Open Tuning" relate to only one specific tuning for guitar or banjo? 

...just wondering if that's the reason. 

 

@stringy -

Thank you!

Makes for interesting possibilities. 

Know of any specific examples where GDAD and ADAD are used for Irish tunes? 

 

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/75/8b/e3/758be3a35b4fd07f1286997b39e91f54--machine-embroidery-embroidery-designs.jpg?nii=t

 

- Emily

  

Cant think of any specific examples to be honest Emily, the bouzouki tu es I put on here are in gdae, I know andy irvine used adad at times, it makes some keys easier to play in, this is a good article that explains it, http://www.mandolinluthier.com.....uzouki.htm

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

Avatar
stringy
Members

Regulars
March 28, 2022 - 5:40 pm
Member Since: August 23, 2020
Forum Posts: 1393
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
47sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Slide guitar is another one that players tune to a chord, for obvious reasons.

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

Avatar
stringy
Members

Regulars
March 28, 2022 - 5:43 pm
Member Since: August 23, 2020
Forum Posts: 1393
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
48sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Actually I cant remember if I used gdad for my finger style bouzouki composition, think I may have done because I played around with all kinds of tunings on it when I first got it, 

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
March 29, 2022 - 12:23 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 4713
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
49sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@stringy - 

So, when are you going to try some on your FIDDLE? 

 

I'm starting to see where using a cross-tuning, one that compliments the key a set of traditional Irish tunes, could be of benefit.  Extra tones would ring out strong & drones or some double stops could be added easier. 

AND, it's ALWAYS easy to find a whole bunch of Irish tunes in a single key, with their relative minor, to string together! 

I'm having a heck of a time finding an example to prove my point with Traditional Irish FIDDLE, but tenor Banjo works for this - so here's the reel, "Tailor's Thimble" (slowly, then faster), by Ben Hockenberry! 

 

 

 

https://clipground.com/images/cat-and-fiddle-clipart-18.jpg

 

...think I'm  to get beginning to know some of these tunes well enough to consider cross-tuning. 

- Emily

Avatar
stringy
Members

Regulars
March 29, 2022 - 2:52 pm
Member Since: August 23, 2020
Forum Posts: 1393
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
50sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Emily its hard enough for me to play fiddle with normal tuning, hard to imagine what it would be like with cross tuning;)

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
March 29, 2022 - 7:41 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 4713
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Can't believe I forgot about some the GREAT posts & videos at the beginning of this thread - especial ABitRusty's. 

Took another peek at the The Fiddle Hangout - found GCGD recommend for tunes in the key of 'C', AEAE for 'A' tunes, ADAE for 'D' tunes & GDGD for 'G' tunes. 

fiddlenbanjo said, in response about GCGD: 

Wow. Sounds like DADGAD for fiddle. I'll give it a try.

DADGAD is a very popular guitar open tuning for finger-pickers. It's really just a Sus 4 tuning in the key of D, that G note being the 4th blah blah, making GCGD a Sus 4 tuning in the key of G.

Love this from janepaints:

It's kinda like butter & jelly on toast vs. dry toast.

Sometimes I think of AEAE/GDGD crosstuning as '2-string fiddle':
Patterns and doublestops fingered on the low pair of strings are fingered exactly the same on the high pair. On the MIDDLE pair of strings, everything becomes a mirror-image of the other fingerings.

All kinds of sympathetic vibrations on crosstuned fiddles. Non-fingered strings merrily buzzing along. Ghost Notes & Ghost Harmonies appear of their own accord. Which makes solo fiddle, like for busking, sound better, bigger, more complete within itself.

And ya got them handy open-string bass notes to knock with the bow every so often for call-and-reponse riddum-making. 

Found this EXTREMELY interesting - (fiddlepogo) said this about AbEbAbBb tuning for "Groundhog": 

AEAE  gives you very tight feeling low strings.nodead

GDGD gives you very slack feeling high strings.nodead

In contrast, AbEbAbEb sounds and plays JUST RIGHT!!!

And since two strings are tightened, and two are loosened, the overall tension on the fiddle probably doesn't change much.

A banjo song [Groundhog] I think I learned from one of Art Rosenbaum's banjo books back in the early 1970's. I always wanted to do it on fiddle cause I really like the tune, but I never found a way that sounded right. I almost accidentally started playing it in "high bass" crosstuning (AbEbAbEb) (that's AEAE down a half step- guitar and banjo, capo 1st fret and play in G) a couple of weeks ago, and I love it. 

Can hear how great it sounds, here: 

Groundhog AbEbAbEb

This also interesting (Dan Gellert): 

A loud, deep-toned fiddle ought to sound great tuned lower than standard. I have one, strung with Helicore heavy gauge, which usually stays tuned GDGD, but sometimes goes down as low as EBF#C# (standard tuning, but 3 semitones low). Old-time country blues fiddlers often used that tuning, and it's also great for playing second to fiddle tunes in A.

I did hate to read there that metal-core strings are preferred over synthetic-core... I really dislike metal-core strings. 

One thing that was curious - absolutely NO recommendations to cross-tune for the key of 'E'!

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
March 29, 2022 - 7:42 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 4713
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Why GDGD tuning - from Peakfiddler. 

 

 

Avatar
JohnG
Greater Chicagoland
Members

Regulars
March 29, 2022 - 8:04 pm
Member Since: April 16, 2021
Forum Posts: 1315
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
53sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Okay, I had to check. C sus 2, C sus 4, etc. Maybe an abbreviation like C seriously upscale sharp?, stupid unusual stuff repeated 4 times? Or short for suspect or sustained or ???

Nope, to all the above. From Wikipedia:

suspended chord (or sus chord) is a musical chord in which the (major or minor) third is omitted and replaced with a perfect fourth or a major second. The lack of a minor or a major third in the chord creates an open sound, while the dissonance between the fourth and fifth or second and root creates tension. When using popular-music symbols, they are indicated by the symbols "sus4" and "sus2". For example, the suspended fourth and second chords built on C (C–E–G), written as Csus4 and Csus2, have pitches C–F–G and C–D–G, respectively.

Now I know (and might even remember) and hopefully other noobs like me, might find this useful!

The old curmudgeon!

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
March 29, 2022 - 8:12 pm
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 2526
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
54sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

@elcbk i have helicore heavys on one of the violins.  thats the one if i do cross tune ill use.   but ive done it a few times on the synthtic strings and works fine too.  if you do it alot, the helicores probably better.  

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
March 29, 2022 - 8:38 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 4713
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@JohnG -

Thank you - for saving me the trouble! 

I've run across the term before, but every time I do - I still have to look it up. (lol) 

 

@ABitRusty -

Thanx, for the idea! 

I should decide on a bunch of tunes, all in one key I really like, then I wouldn't mind leaving Mortimer cross-tuned for that. 

 

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/82/34/51/823451728eee1eb19d8d06eddcbd34c6--musician-gifts-digital-collage.jpg

 

 

 

...I really understand the attraction of tuning for more strings to ring sympathetically - I already benefit, from having a 5th string. (lol)

- Emily

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
March 29, 2022 - 9:49 pm
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 2526
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@ELCBK said
 

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/82/34/51/823451728eee1eb19d8d06eddcbd34c6--musician-gifts-digital-collage.jpg

 

 

...I really understand the attraction of tuning for more strings to ring sympathetically - I already benefit, from having a 5th string. (lol)

- Emily

  

blinkbunny-headbang

 

You really should explore that more in depth.. lol. coffee2

https://fiddlershop.com/produc.....ring-viola

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
March 30, 2022 - 12:03 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 4713
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@ABitRusty -

Hey, I'm kinda mad! 

I thought Glasser was only going to make 6-string Violins - that's why I decided to go with the 5-string Viola, instead!   

And I can't even convince anyone to try a 5-string... but, if I were more mobile & able to make better use of an amp - I'd go for one! 🤗

 

...says don't worry about playing it under water - but it's got electronic components in the chinrest! 🤣 

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
March 30, 2022 - 8:39 am
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 2526
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
58sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

probably weather sealed.  

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
April 3, 2022 - 8:12 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 4713
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
59sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

ABitRusty said
@elcbk here is one the best sources for cross tuned fiddle playing!!!   Theres absolutely no talking in it and tunes are played repeated at different speeds.  all free.  

Rayna Gellert

 

OUTSTANDING LINK! 

THANX! 

 

Before I mess more with cross-tuning, I'm going to have to take a closer look at my carbon bridge on 'Edgar'. 

Noticed my 'D' string is showing issues with the winding separating at the nut, but much worse at the bridge! 

In all fairness to the Larson Virtuoso strings, the Virtuoso D is thicker than the Original Larson D. 

I used graphite when I changed the strings, but didn't seem to help.  I hate to make a wrong move - especially because I don't see that the nut can be replaced (part of the carbon composite fingerboard?) if I mess it up. 

It's also still fresh in my mind that I waited a long time to get this Viola... 🤔 if I'm careful, think it won't hurt to slightly widen the notch on the bridge a hair & make sure it's smooth... still stressful. 😖 

 

@Fiddlerman -

Any pointers, for me?

Avatar
stringy
Members

Regulars
April 4, 2022 - 10:04 am
Member Since: August 23, 2020
Forum Posts: 1393
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
60sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Don’t do it, If the string is unwinding at both ends it’s a faulty string.

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 58
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today Space., loveluach
Upcoming anonkid, KindaScratchy, freesbee, paulinefiddle, Allenph, oneloudmime, MsJoy, ARCoyne, Gringo, Sandybourne, Ripton, husseinHr, Guido, A. V. Suvorov, Scrap, DennisS, JiminTexas, mcwey
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 4713
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2680
Fiddlestix: 2647
ABitRusty: 2526
Oliver: 2439
DanielB: 2379
Gordon Shumway: 2033
damfino: 2027
Kevin M.: 1973
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31076
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 79
Topics: 9810
Posts: 123534
Newest Members:
WFSCcontest
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16040, KindaScratchy: 1759, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3741, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 4054