I'm not so sure everyone feels rhythm the same way when there's more than one happening in the same tune - one might be favored over another. THREE seems to be a magic number for me.  The hardest thing (to me) is learning to feel not only the sum of, but ALL of the individual rhythms within a polyrhythm & why drummers are absolutely amazing to me! 

I was listening to the Cat Stevens album & looked closer at "Tuesday's Dead", because the rhythm struck me as a little Latin/Caribbean feeling - which may partly be from the choice of instruments. 

Tuesday's Dead

So, to me, the Songo Rhythm was close to what I was feeling - but I can't get close enough in tempo without entering in DAW. 

Songo Drums 95 BPM  

Songo Rhythm

Then I took a closer look at a Songo Groove.  VERY interesting how little I was focusing on! 🤨  Songo is a Cuban Rhythm & music genre.

Songo Groove

This cyclical format helps me see exactly what the Snare, Hi-hat and Bass drum are doing, what points they sync up & what hits are stressed.

I think I tend to focus more on lower tones of percussion, which may explain why I kept feeling certain beats stressed more than they show in the video.  I feel 1,2 (starting with 1st hit of snare, but the 1st hit of the bass feels stressed) - 1,2,3 (3rd hit of the snare) - 1,2,3 (3rd hit of the bass) - 1,2,3 (last hit of the snare). 

I took a look at a few more grooves from the 19 Drumset Fundamentals Drum Groove Playlist.  SAME thing - I only focus on certain hits & not necessarily all the stressed hits shown.  I'm probably screwed since I now think the MAMBO GROOVE sounds more like the Songo Drums video (more than the Songo Groove). 😞

Mambo Groove

Mambo Groove

So, I SEE what is 'supposed' to be stressed, but can feel other sync'd hits 'as' stressed... and then there's the ones I focus on.  I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to translate this to my playing.  To me it should be good to make sure I convey what 'I' feel, but it probably means I still just need to listen more to what the individual percusive instruments play. 

I think there's something really important, especially about the pitch, but also the contrasting timbre in the way percusive instruments are used - which might be translated into more tonal percusive effects played on the fiddle (5 or 6-string in particular).  ...just haven't made all the connections yet. 

@Gordon Shumway -

Thank you.

Besides Kopanitsa/Gankino counted 2+2+3+2+2, I've also seen another 11 beat Bulgarian dance (Acano mlada nevesto) counted as 3+2+2+2+2.  Learned there's actually a special name for an ELEVEN count meter - Undecuple!

The Balkan Peninsula is definitely full of odd meter music (Fiddle Music From Central and SE Europe Thread) & the rhythms are easier for me to understand from watching the dances. 

Original Bulgarian/Hebrew Medley: Ludo Kopano – Hebrew Cradle Song – Ludo Kopano "Gankinata"

Gankinata

Ludo Kopano Notation - 2+2+3+2+2 Ludo Kopano dance info

Something about listening to & playing music in this thread completely revitalizes me when I feel worn out! 

I've finally got additional tunes in more sets underway, for the majority I only have 2 tunes down.  Just started the 2nd one of the Sticky Buns Slides Set, "Why You No Like-a My Sticky Buns Ah?".  Been having a hard time hearing all the notes played played in this 2nd tune, so I'm grateful that the set returns to repeat the 1st tune, "It's Gonna Tip"!  

Been thinking a lot lately - about ways tunes can be played, expression, how I like 'the flow' upset once in a while... and whether (or not) music 'terms' are actually helpful.  I'm starting to see how, besides other factors, music terms change over time.  Even with easier internet access, pretty sure it will take more than what's left of my lifetime for any real consensus.

Think I'm in love with Tempo Rubato!  

While rubato is often loosely taken to mean playing with expressive and rhythmic freedom, it was traditionally used specifically in the context of expression as speeding up and then slowing down the tempo. 

CRAZY, all the serious controversy that surrounded 'Rubato' in the past, and I didn't realize there are several kinds - that can be combined! 

Accelerando and rallentando - tempo fluctuation.  I already feel like I speed up playing subdivisions of larger notes, would be nice to think I actually have the freedom to speed up/slow down & end up perfectly for the next measure.

Tenuto and agogic accents - change in note value.  We already do this in Irish jigs, e.g., give the 1st of 3 eighth notes longer value, the 2nd much shorter & the 3rd normal! 

Melodic rubato - not quite sure if this means the melody is completely free of a steady accompaniment, but maybe touches base with it on beat 1 of every measure - similar to jazz?  

I'm going to have to learn more about this. 

Couple of the books mentioned in Wikipedia are available free from the Internet Archive.  The one by Hugo Riemann is in German - never asked Google to translate anything that big, but might give it a try. 

The magic I feel in music (& playing my fiddle) comes from everywhere I find something uneven.  I've looked at quite a few individual ways of identifying & creating uneveness in music, not only in this thread, but also quite a few others. 

One thing I haven't addressed - the best way to see how some of these can work together. 

THIS is where I'm going to have to concede DAW will shine. 

Think it just has to be easier to see options & results of changes in DAW, when working with more than one kind of uneveness - or more complicated musical ideas. 

These [Uneven] Patterns Are EVERYWHERE in Music... (Rhythm, Harmony, Melody) - from Splice YT Channel.  Asymmetrical Rhythms, Polyrhythms, Velocity, Swing, Contour, Figured Arpeggio, Counter Point, Tertiary Harmony, Inversions & Harmonic Rhythm.   

These [Uneven] Patterns Are EVERYWHERE in Music...

Some pretty interesting plugins available from Minimal Audio (especially the Flex Bundle deal at Splice), but I'll need to take a closer look & see if I can make something similar happen with software & effects I already have. 

Related threads: 

TENSION........ and release!

Harmony and Reharmonization

Identifying Patterns in Similar Tunes 

Groovey Stuff

I've been busy playing some Canadian tunes today, but wanted to take a few moments for this, too.

ELCBK said [back in post #26]
I finally felt like I got some very productive practicing in - 2 days in a row!  I always get some practice time in, just can't say it always feels 'productive'. 

...moved on to 'brain stuff'.

Notation Must Die: The Battle For How We Read Music

Lately, it's like I'm at the right place, at the right time.  Tantacrul's video today - what can I say... it spoke to me. 😏  I doubt if anyone else will watch this from beginning to end (like I did), but some of the chapters might 'speak' to others. 

There was a lot more in that particular post, and I've been thru much more of my musical journey since then, but this video recently started an interesting discussion on The Session: Musical Notation Must Die! 

...and, like here, doesn't look like folks were likely to watch the whole video - understandable, it's long.  There ARE chapter links listed in the video description!

Actually, I rewatched it today to refresh my memory (been well over a year ago)... great summary of notation systems/innovations, it brings up inadequacies, link to culture/religion/speech, and reforms/alternatives proposed.  Some humor, "the prick of perfection" - do fiddlers in the UK really know about this?  Some rants on truly stupid ideas is fun (for me), hey - it's important to know why things 'don't work', as well!

Don't think ANY notation related to the piano is optimal for bowed string instruments - especially 'piano rolls'... no place for microtones.  I have previously seen Jullian Carrillo's system, that works for different tuning sustems & microtones, used (can't remember if video, or article). 

Playing a 6-string Violin, of course I find it ridiculous to have to use 3 completely different clefs, when Rev Thomas Salmon proposed an excellent, yet simple, reform back in 1692 (starting approx 43:00).  

Some notation forms can help folks get started learning to play, but they ALL have drawbacks, like piano rolls.  What really makes sense, is looking at tablature (like using tapes & fingering numbers for a fretless string instrument) - you only learn approximately where to place your fingers, NOT the note name of the pitch you're supposed to hear.  Scrolling Tablature (piano roll) at least tells you 'when' to play a note.  I do regret not learning to link note names to what I was hearing everywhere my fingers touched the fingerboard - it makes me have to think about what key/mode I'm playing in. 

Tantacrul does make this important point:

People don't give up on playing an instrument because of notation! 

...also talks about accessibility issues - meaning for people who have some visual impairments (types of dyslexia, types of color blindness, total blindness).  

He also pointed out how digital apps are slowly becoming more flexible (and easier to use), but there's NO mention in the video of ABC's (thread) - which serves many purposes for simple tunes!

I still recommend this video for everyone playing Violin, Viola, or Cello... along with the Adam Neely video in post #24 (about changing our notation mindset for today's ways of creating & playing music).  The disconnect between reading notation and playing music is interesting.  Even if you only want to learn to play a few tunes, you may benefit more from a different notation system (for your current level of learning) - and we ALL want to share what we are feeling thru music, the best we can!  This also feeds into discussions about Learning Fiddling Genres (thread) - my feelings of notation falling short for them, my wanting to be able to give someone (unfamiliar with a genre) a true frame of reference.   

Was remembering the 'Syncopated Emphasis for Reels' bowing tutorial (grouping notes as '3, 3, 2' in a measure) - just read THIS IS A 'CROSS-RHYTHM' in this musicianship tutorial from Richard Bruner Music (Rhythm - VI. Cross Rhythm and Polyrhythm).  

😶 So, 'we' can change the accented notes to form a 'cross-rhythm'.  Instead of feeling 2 pulses in a 4/4 measure - we can make it 3 pulses with accents in that syncopated bowing!  

Now @ABitRusty - you got me thinking about 'groove' again (Groovy Stuff Thread).  I finally realized... even with syncopated bowing (or cross-rhythm) I STILL MAY NOT feel the 'GROOVE' I want!  I think the best groove comes from where I decide to lengthen/shorten/borrow time from certain notes, or push/pull notes behind or ahead of a beat - maybe add swing, but a consistent rhythm.  I also think a great 'groove' has 'drive', which I feel is added emphasis ahead of a beat - starting to realize can even be pitch-related (or change in interval size).  ...still thinking about if/how ornaments can possibly help, too.  

What Is Groove?  The Difference Between Time, Feel and Groove - Josh DiStefano.

What Is Groove?

🤔... weird to think 10/8 is not an 'odd time' - but 5/4 is. 

It only makes sense to break down a tune into beats and off-beats, especially for syncopation.  So, if ALL 'odd' time signatures can be seen this way, does this mean there really is NO SUCH THING AS ODD TIME?

We can have a bar grouping of 3, 3, 2, 2 ('Leira’s Trip to Cosac' video), but don't think I've ever seen a bar of 3, 2, 3, 2.  I have seen alternating meter, though (can't remember where, at the moment) - 3/4, 4/4.   

Found an interesting video by Malcolm MacFarlane - about seeing time signatures as their beats PLUS their off-beats when Improvising in 'Odd' Time Signatures.  The Royal Conservatoire of Scotland funded this video!  

Improvising in 'Odd' Time Signatures

Wow, I had to get away from that 'bounce metronome Jig rhythm' video for a bit to be able to figure out why I don't like it - why I don't feel jig swing & lilt the same way.  

I've decided I like the 2nd, 3rd & 5th, 6th beats delayed/later than in the previous video... more like a horse's canter. 

Slow Motion Canter - think of the leading front leg hitting on the ONE (there's three beats, one pulse = half a jig measure).  

Slow Motion Canter

I'm certainly NOT saying I'm right, but the canter rhythm is definitely closer to my preference for most jigs.  

I think the pitch/interval structure of some jigs I've run across can be the exception - cause me to use a different groove... but I don't have an example off the top of my head. 

When does it cease being a jig & just become a tune in 6/8 time?