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Dots nightmare!
Topic Rating: 3.8 Topic Rating: 3.8 Topic Rating: 3.8 Topic Rating: 3.8 Topic Rating: 3.8 Topic Rating: 3.8 (4 votes) 
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katie m
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December 28, 2020 - 11:42 am
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Hi all,

 

Hope all had a fab Christmas ! So I have jumped and and taken off my fret guide thing and replaced it with two dots! I’ve got them exactly in the right places but when I check with my tuner app which is clear tunes they are all quite far out!!

 

Any ideas as to what’s going on ?

 

Katie m

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stringy
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December 28, 2020 - 12:32 pm
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which notes are they.

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katie m
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December 28, 2020 - 12:36 pm
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2D22782D-5D09-46DC-BF98-2C9636FA6BBA.jpegImage EnlargerSo they are in the first finger and third finger spots. But I think I’ve worked out that as long as the contact point is in the middle they are ok... I think

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stringy
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December 28, 2020 - 12:58 pm
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To play a note perfectly in tune on the violin you have to hit it exactly at the correct spot, if you do you will hear it ring, it is unmistakeable. I am not familiar with the tuner you mention. but to get the exact position you need to put your tuner on and then play the notes up the fingerboard till it is exactly right then place your tape or dot. the actual spot you need to hit to make a note ring is about a millimetre or less, it can be done though it takes practice, intonation is very difficult as I have mentioned before and we all practice it,this is what I was saying about training your ears, the sooner you start the better, look up suzuki tonalisation on you tube. To me your tapes look in the wrong place but its hard to tell from a photo. 

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katie m
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December 28, 2020 - 1:47 pm
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Thank you for your suggestions! I’m definitely back to square one with my violin playing ! I am looking up tonalisation at the moment !

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katie m
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December 28, 2020 - 2:43 pm
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Thank you stringy! So I think my plan is to have the very basic strips I had when I first started! They were literally three coloured lines. Then I found a really detailed fret guide so I started to use that. But now I’m not sure the dots are even in the correct place. So I’m going to go back to the line guide thing I started with. But I have learned I really need to pay more attention to how the notes sound when they are in tune and look out for the ringing !! 

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stringy
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December 28, 2020 - 2:48 pm
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Mouse
December 28, 2020 - 2:50 pm
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Just another perspective, because this is such a hot topic and people have a love/hate relationship with tapes. For me, I need the tape to have some kind of reference point. I do listen, but since I, most often, am way off, I am spending more time adjusting than actually knowing where I hit the sweet spot. 

Even instructors vary on whether they like tapes or not. By the way. the dots are not going to be very good. They will be pushed off as you slide the finger up and down. A tape across that area is better. 

What I was told is that you make the spot from the perspective of you looking at the fingerboard while playing. It is also where the pad of your finger actually touches the fingerboard. I am not sure if you are holding the violin in front of you and then "plucking" to get the right note and placing the dot down or doing it the way I explained. You have a different perspective from looking down the fingerboard. Whichever way works for you, is right for you.

If you need tapes, I would use tapes and not dots. Been there, done that, chased them down the fingerboard. 

Some people can learn it the way people do who do not use tapes. Others, like me, and there are many of us, including instructors when teaching, who do use tapes. It is an individual choice and is up to you. There is no right or wrong, or yes or no with this decision. It is individual. Therefore, I am not saying to remove them or to use them, just my experience based on my learning process.

I need the reference point. You could just use a tape across the first position to give you a reference point and to get you used to where to start when you pick up your violin, You can then get the feel between your fingers and the feel of the fingerboard to help find that spot to tune your ear to without as much wiggling around to find it. I have the first position tape on my violas and cellos, started with all fingers. My violin still has all first position because I have problems with the notes so close together on a violin fingerboard and I don't play it as often.

I am getting close to removing the one tape from my cello. I can hear the right tones better now and I have the feel of where it is associated on my fingerboard now because I didn't have to wiggle my finger around as much to find it. I have the feel and the sound pretty much figured out now. Funny thing, my new Evah green label cello strings really advance that because the sound is so clear on this cello with those strings. Much easier to hear the sweet spot.

I agree you have to learn the sound, but if you are having to constantly move the finger around, you never really get the feel for it, either. My repetition memory was of moving my finger around. The tapes eliminated that. For me, and many others, I could not learn it that way. That is why I say it is what is best for you. Some don't use them and detest them. Others simply need a starting point, like a first position tape.

I hope this helps. We all learn in different ways. 

Cello and Viola Time! 

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stringy
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December 28, 2020 - 3:03 pm
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mouse what you say is quite true, I never told her to take the tapes off, each learns his own way, I started to learn using tonalisations. I was told the way to learn a piece without moving the finger around was to play a single note at a time over and over bar by bar and would fix it in my memory, starting with very simple pieces, its time consuming but my own intonation is getting a lot better, as is my hand frames, but each to their own, it would be interesting to hear fiddlermans thoughts on this. The last video I posted fiddlers heaven was my first play through while actually reading the music, I am not great at reading music but for me the muscle memory was there to play in tune without moving my fingers about, I find this with nearly alltunes I play now except for the note B which because of my hearing I struggle to hear and for it to sound correct I have to play it slightly sharp as under ear it sounds correct when it is actually flat, to be fair its took me two years of two hours a night of endless scales though to get to this point.

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katie m
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December 28, 2020 - 3:17 pm
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Yes I agree I think it’s the reference point I need! And I also see what you are saying about the dots sliding around. If I have absolutely nothing on my finger board I feel completely lost. I’m so fickle I’ll probably change my mind again! Hmm lots to consider. Thank you for all your suggestions! I’m hoping I will hear the notes that are in tune ringing out at me ! 

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katie m
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December 28, 2020 - 3:20 pm
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Also when you say about the perspective when looking down the finger board mouse, I think that’s the problem I’m having too! I think I’d rather having nothing than have dots!! 

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Mouse
December 28, 2020 - 3:25 pm
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Stringy, I have issues with a particular note, also. I have an issue with the G on the D string of a cello and it is quite the nuisance. It is played a lot! For some reason, I tend to flat it and can't tell until I do the next note. I tell myself to go a little higher, actually lower in the cello fingerboard, on the way to it, but to no avail. The Evahs have helped a bit with that note, but it is still a tad flat just not as noticeable. So weird. I mean, the  C on the G string is the same location, just a string over, but the C is fine. The D on the A string is the same thing. Same location as the G in the D, but I tend to flat the G and usually hit the C and D just fine. I have major issues with the complete C string. Seemed to be forgotten with the lessons. Finding songs that use it on my own.

Katie m, do you have a particular note that is more of an issue than the others? Just curious. 

I think Fiddlerman chimed in on tapes a while ago, before you were a member, stringy, in a different thread. Comes up often and the discussion is always very interesting. I am pleased Katie m brought it up again. I find it interesting how people do it. 

Keep us posted as to how you do, Katie m. I am very curious and also curious if the dots move for you. Could have been the brand I used. 

Cello and Viola Time! 

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katie m
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December 28, 2020 - 3:35 pm
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Yes I will definitely keep you posted. You might not believe this but I only put the dots on this afternoon so hmm not long playing with them. I don’t think I have a particular pain in the backside note but some are better than others. 

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stringy
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December 28, 2020 - 3:40 pm
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I have a very kind proffessor of music on another forum that I am lucky enough to have helping me these days, he is the one I actually recorded that last tune for. he has helped me beyond measure, especially with intonation dont know why but he offered to help. told him about my problems with the note b but he was baffled, thought itmay be something to do with the notes I play before that one which effectively turned it into a chord, to do with tunings, but I didnt u derstand his explanation u nfortunately, maybe when I start with my teacher that will get better, when the virus stops that is.

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Mouse
December 28, 2020 - 3:41 pm
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Try one tape, Katie, Just the first finger. Then try that as a reference point. Try using sound and feel to get you there. It will take a while, so don't get discouraged, If you need more reference, try adding the third finger tape. 

You are not fickle. You are learning and this takes a long time. Like stringy said, repetition of the note over and over. Don't give up.

I wish I could have done it like stringy, and others without tapes, but it just didn't work for me. My thinking and memory just don't operate that way. Funny how differently people's brains function. 

Cello and Viola Time! 

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Mouse
December 28, 2020 - 3:43 pm
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I have watched your videos, stringy, really like them. 

Cello and Viola Time! 

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stringy
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December 28, 2020 - 3:44 pm
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katie m said
Yes I will definitely keep you posted. You might not believe this but I only put the dots on this afternoon so hmm not long playing with them. I don’t think I have a particular pain in the backside note but some are better than others. 

  

persevere you will hear the notes eventually ,that is the hardest part of violin, once you can  hear how bad you are you will know you are improving, you have to be able to hear things to correct them, and when you suddenly realise you were not as good as you thought you were you know your ears have improved🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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Mouse
December 28, 2020 - 3:57 pm
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@stringy said

once you can  hear how bad you are you will know you are improving,

That is so funny you said that. Fiddlerman said something similar to me, either in am email or in a post quite a while ago. I mentioned I could hear the difference between strings, or something. I think I noticed when I changed strings that the sound was much better or something, I can't remember what the connection was to his statement, or whether it was in a post or email. But he said I was beginning to be able to recognize the right note. I just can't find them!

Cello and Viola Time! 

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katie m
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December 29, 2020 - 5:57 am
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So basically I just want to check with you guys that what I’m doing is right. So I’m playing where I think the note is with my tuner on then move my finger so I get the note. Then I keep playing the correct note over and over to get it in my head. I’m also trying to notice how the note rings if it’s in tune! Is that the right thing to do do you reckon ? Katie

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Mouse
December 29, 2020 - 6:15 am
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You got it. Youbare in training, more or less. 

If you do the D on the A string, you can use it to get used to the interval between the D on the A string and open E. It is helpful to get used to what the intervals sound like, too,  especially if you are tuned correctly because the E would be an open string and the D would be fingered on the A string. You would know you are off with the D fingering if the interval sound between the D and the E was not quite right. You will notice it when playing a sing as you get used to what it should sound like.

All this sounds pretty simplistic, but, be patient, katie m, the rewards are well worth it. You have a whole forum full of members here to help and encourage you.

I am more cello anf then viola before violin, so, in the details, others will be more helpful, but we will all help with the encourgement,

If anyone find an issue with my interval explanation, please feel fee to correct or add to what I said. Zi am trying not to overload katie m. 

katie m, if you have other questions on a different aspect, feel free to start another topic thread, it will make it easier for you to follow and find your information you are seeking later if you don’t just ask another question about a different aspect in this thread, just a tip, but not required.

Cello and Viola Time! 

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