Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

Check out our 2023 Group Christmas Project HERE

AAA
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Modal Scale/Keys
What makes modal scales different?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (41 votes) 
Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
January 22, 2021 - 12:28 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

*(edited)

There is an abundance of Traditional Fiddle music based on Modes.

I admit I still have to go back to some of my reference material for help when I need to identify a Key, especially if it's possibly a Mode

Wanted to share this great article from "Berklee Online" that helps me understand what's different about them and even includes an interesting exercise to do. 

Music Modes: Major and Minor Modal Scales in Music Theory

In afterthought, figured I should also re-mention this link discussing Minor scale pattern variation - for added understanding. 

Why are there 3 Minor Scales?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/The_fiddler%2C_Strabane_-_geograph.org.uk_-_654143.jpg

 

"The Fiddler", from the "Let the Dance Begin" sculptural installation, by Maurice Harron -  at Strabane, N. Ireland.

- Emily

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 20, 2021 - 5:23 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

A recent podcast interview with Liam Thomas Bailey talking about how much he likes the modal keys, got me thinking again.

Didn't know modal keys/scales existed until I got on this forum - thought I just liked minor keys.  I understand them now, but they didn't really mean much to me other than I play a lot of them - still don't know the patterns by heart. 

I like the idea of better understanding what I like in music.  Think we ALL have a little more complex love of music, not simply a preference for " Major" or "Minor".

Like in any other creative endeaver, it's better to have more tools! 

So, thought if only I could put a "face" to some of these modes then maybe I'll get a better feel for what I'm playing with - and how to use them down the road. 

  • • Seems I like a lot of A dorian, like Rocky Road to Dublin (off the top of my head) and who doesn't love Scarborough Fair?  
  • • Just found out when I learned Banish Misfortune that it is D mixolydian. 
  • • GregW helped me find out "Eleanor Rigby" (Beatles) is Em dorian 
  • • Greg also pointed out, the common use of lydian mode in Scandinavian music (Emilie Waldken, Halling video)! 
  • • Didn't think I knew any lydian modal tunes until Liam pointed out The Simpsons... 

Go ahead and laugh, but then listen to this cool lydian waltz! 

Elliott Smith - Waltz #1

 

Okay, now I'm REALLY interested... did Waltz #1 remind anyone of some other music (Pink Floyd, or Enya maybe)? 

Great article, "Lydian Mode: How to Use it to Write Better Songs". 

https://blog.landr.com/lydian-mode/ 

Here's the parent article, "Music Modes: How to Enrich Your Songs With Modal Color". 

https://blog.landr.com/music-modes/ 

giphy.gif

 

Think I'll start to be on the lookout for more music that use some of the other modes! 

- Emily

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
February 20, 2021 - 6:27 pm
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 3896
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

forget its guitar..this guy explains things as good as anybody.  for instance..if you looked at just the sheet music for banish..depending on who notated it and such..and it had one #.. how would you KNOW its mixolydian and not Ador or Bminor or G major?   he goes into some of that here using sweet home alabama.  be careful... lol..deep rabbit hole. 😁  but fun.  like i was saying earlier in the ither topic.. other than a learning thing, it seems playing tunes on fiddle may not require as much in this area.  bluegrass, jazz, pop fiddlers probably would need more due to the backing other muscians and improv breaks.  youd want to make sure your choices of scale runs and double stops matched..  but it seems to me especially playing like irish tunes and stuff youd be playing the melody and it is what it is.  not diminishing the value and i love the subject..just maybe not something to sweat as much about on fiddle.  opinion and not a knock on your topic, just my rambling.  hope the video is useful.  he has two excellent books that go way deep into the subject.  but theyre guitar oriented.

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 20, 2021 - 7:26 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@ABitRusty -

This is a SUPER video - actually does clear a few things up for me.

Was just thinking about tunes that change keys, but Classic Modal Interchange?

Fabulous! - probably a lot of this going on in music I love, no wonder I'm so confused. (lol)

The different ways of looking at "Sweet Home Alabama" is extremely interesting. 

Thanx, Greg! 

giphy.gif

 

I may just have to stick to the broad term, "Modal Mixture and Modulation" when describing music I like. (lol)

- Emily

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
February 20, 2021 - 8:23 pm
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 3896
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

fun stuff @elcbk  and at times all makes sense...then i look at a tune like The Earls Chair... lol

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 21, 2021 - 1:01 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Okay, so far I can see why I like Pink Floyd. 

David Gilmour liked to use the dorian mode e.g., Another Brick in the Wall is D dorian. 

But what about Phrygian?  

Turns out phrygian modal music can get pretty strange & dark - LOVE IT! 

Well, the theme from "Lord of The Rings", David Bowie's "Space Oddity" and Metallica's "Wherever I May Roam" are all phrygian! 

Have to say I love Flamenco music - phrygian mode!

All about the sound of the Phrygian mode - by QJamTracks! 

 

 

giphy.gif

 

Oooh... now I'm wondering what about the music from "How to Train Your Dragon"? 

This is enough brain work for me for a while. (lol)

- Emily

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 21, 2021 - 9:09 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I'm trying to keep from running down the rabbit hole, but... 

Got to love Grace Slick's "White Rabbit" with Jefferson Airplane - F# phrygian mode!  Performed here by Quartet San Francisco!

 

 

...curious about a few other modes, now. (lol)

 

giphy.gif 

 

🤔 I was barely a teenager when this song became popular - always associated it with the book that helped keep me away from drug use, "Go Ask Alice" (thought at that time to be a real diary)... too bad I didn't find a book it's equal about teenage alcohol use, back then. (lol) 

Don't do drugs or alcohol! 

- Emily

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 21, 2021 - 6:43 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Just found my new best friend! 

https://www.scales-chords.com/.....finder.php

Really helps, for right now, if I suspect a tune is modal. 

 

Just Being Contented Smiley

...would be cool if I get to where I'm changing tunes to modal keys or composing them.🙄 

- Emily 

 

I'm in a mode...

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
April 21, 2021 - 8:16 am
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 3896
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

this is required viewing and there will be a test later.   Dont let the title fool you...more to it than that. wink

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Members

Regulars
April 21, 2021 - 10:43 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 2422
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ebulent? Do you think he is trying to say ebUllient?

It may be that the original ideas about how a key supposedly feels were developed before perfect ET was finalised. Did we have another thread about this elsewhere? maybe it was vcom. I joked that if an orchestra is playing in D minor (one flat), the brass and clarinets are playing in E minor (one sharp). How is that going to work if half the orchestra is crying and the other half is laughing?

And then, as was pointed out, string instruments tuned in fifths aren't completely ET. But bear in mind, some, heavily influenced by Bach (or whomever), if he wrote in certain keys for the violin or cello, exploiting their tuning, are going to be unable to gainsay him. Is that what the guy in the video said? I didn't watch the whole thing. I'm practising the violin as I type, lol!

I think my school music teacher once said he felt these things on a modern ET piano. OK, some can smell the colour blue - I cant. boohoo.

Andrew

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
April 21, 2021 - 11:55 am
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 3896
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Gordon Shumway said
Ebulent? Do you think he is trying to say ebUllient?

It may be that the original ideas about how a key supposedly feels were developed before perfect ET was finalised. Did we have another thread about this elsewhere? maybe it was vcom. I joked that if an orchestra is playing in D minor (one flat), the brass and clarinets are playing in E minor (one sharp). How is that going to work if half the orchestra is crying and the other half is laughing?

And then, as was pointed out, string instruments tuned in fifths aren't completely ET. But bear in mind, some, heavily influenced by Bach (or whomever), if he wrote in certain keys for the violin or cello, exploiting their tuning, are going to be unable to gainsay him. Is that what the guy in the video said? I didn't watch the whole thing. I'm practising the violin as I type, lol!

I think my school music teacher once said he felt these things on a modern ET piano. OK, some can smell the colour blue - I cant. boohoo.

  

what I got out of the video...

pick a key that suits the instrument...take advantage of what ithe instrument does best depending on music type and possibly muscian.   key obviously important to lead singer.  dark vs bright keys not really the reason to pick a key for a song...more about who is singing or what is playing it.  something along those lines...

only my opinion.which.may be effluent  violin-student

i did think it was a good video as are most of his to me.

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Members

Regulars
April 21, 2021 - 2:12 pm
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 2422
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

GregW said

pick a key that suits the instrument...take advantage of what ithe instrument does best depending on music type and possibly muscian.

I wasn't disagreeing with the video - just trying to look at the same things but from a slightly different angle.

When I was learning guitar, it was clear that some pieces were "guitaristic", in other words, if the composer was a guitarist like Villa Lobos, then all the notes sat comfortably. But if a piece of keyboard music by Scarlatti was transcribed for guitar, then no note sat comfortably. It was not guitaristic music. Similarly, a violinistic piece (i.e. hopping between the E and A strings, or, worse, between the E and D strings) written by Vivaldi is pretty dreadful to play on a keyboard.

Someone on vcom asked about playing violin music on viola - transpose or not?

I invented the words "violinistic" and "violistic" and said that if a piece was violinistic, it would only be violistic if it was transposed. Ditto for cello. I have no idea if anyone understood what I said, as I didn't get a response.

Andrew

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
April 21, 2021 - 2:58 pm
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 3896
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Gordon Shumway said

GregW said

pick a key that suits the instrument...take advantage of what ithe instrument does best depending on music type and possibly muscian.

I wasn't disagreeing with the video - just trying to look at the same things but from a slightly different angle.

When I was learning guitar, it was clear that some pieces were "guitaristic", in other words, if the composer was a guitarist like Villa Lobos, then all the notes sat comfortably. But if a piece of keyboard music by Scarlatti was transcribed for guitar, then no note sat comfortably. It was not guitaristic music. Similarly, a violinistic piece (i.e. hopping between the E and A strings, or, worse, between the E and D strings) written by Vivaldi is pretty dreadful to play on a keyboard.

Someone on vcom asked about playing violin music on viola - transpose or not?

I invented the words "violinistic" and "violistic" and said that if a piece was violinistic, it would only be violistic if it was transposed. Ditto for cello. I have no idea if anyone understood what I said, as I didn't get a response.

  

i didnt take as disagreein..i gave my synopsis since you said you wernt able to finish.  from what you did state i gathered you were pretty much on the same wavelength in thought that the video was..

my effluent was a play on words keying off the Ebulent question.. ..  sry...lol..

Its just that I feel some of this stuff is a little above were i should be spending time when i think about it....but its still interesting.   if im not careful me repeating the information can become nonsense..

there is a section in the video where he discusses guitar music and also why things like irish/bluegrass fiddle sound better in keys like g,c,d,a. so your violinistic term is spot on...

Avatar
JohnG
Greater Chicagoland
Members

Regulars
April 22, 2021 - 2:53 pm
Member Since: April 16, 2021
Forum Posts: 1591
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@ABitRusty - That video "Which Key is the Saddest" was excellent and taught me new things (or reminded me of long forgotten things). I am very poorly trained in music theory history and videos like this remind of my lack.

THANKS

The old curmudgeon!

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
April 22, 2021 - 3:31 pm
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 3896
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

JohnG said
@ABitRusty - That video "Which Key is the Saddest" was excellent and taught me new things (or reminded me of long forgotten things). I am very poorly trained in music theory history and videos like this remind of my lack.

THANKS

  

Me too.. theres alot of good stuff out there!

somewhere around 30 min mark he gets into modes which I think relates this video to Elcbk's original topic here.  the whole video is good though.

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
April 22, 2021 - 4:31 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@ABitRusty -

Love Adam Neely videos!

Thanx for tying these videos in here. 

McCartney... creative genius, my hero! 

So, appears The Beatles first started to learn by playing, and modifying, many different types/styles of music (hint, hint Fiddlers), to make each tune their own! 

Nice to know that process helped lead them into understanding how to create all those fabulous, original pieces! 

Fabulous chord progressions/harmony.

LOVED how powerful using "Plagal Cadence" (heard in hymns) can be.

https://www.britannica.com/art.....cadence/ 

The Pentatonic Scale!

Brilliant use of modes and modulation. 

Just Being Contented Smiley

...this video helped me understand why I never cared for 50's popular music! (lol)

- Emily

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
April 22, 2021 - 11:50 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Discovered more modal treasure - a little more modulation, too! 

Ancient Irish Scales. 

https://www.libraryireland.com.....ic/IV.php/

This wonderful article claims there is no "Minor Irish scale", but 3 Modal (Dorian, Phrygian, and Lydian). 

 

giphy.gif

 

...keep Irish microtones in mind, also!  

Great info hidden in this thread - https://fiddlerman.com/forum/m.....ntonation/

- Emily

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
April 23, 2021 - 12:22 am
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 3896
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

deleted my previous post so not confusing.   

good link @elcbk  ..like i was saying..gonna watch the microtone vid this weekend!

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
April 27, 2021 - 10:53 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

No doubt, we are ALL creative - some people just have more tools they are comfortable using to create with, than others have. 

My point? 

I believe it's very important to continually add tools to my arsenal as I develop more skills. 

Think learning Modal scales and riffs of all kinds, can be helpful tools - making more freedom of expression, possible (I live for possibilities)! 🤗 

🙄 Now, I'm not big on practicing scales and I don't necessarily require any sheet music - until I have a question about a piece that needs answering. 

So, I'm guilty of missing out on some of the tools Fiddlerman has provided for those who do follow a more organized path to learning the fiddle. 

Pertaining to this thread, this is GREAT! 

https://fiddlerman.com/studies.....-improv/ 

Includes pdf's for:

  • Minor dorian scales to the ninth – circle of fifths
  • Minor dorian scales, arpeggios and studies in 3 common keys
  • Simple dorian excercise in most keys 

These could ALL be even better, for people like me, if these scales and exercises are ALL labeled.  So, I will have to do that for myself (helpful association for visual learning). 

https://clipartart.com/images/emoji-music-clipart.png

THANK YOU FIDDLERMAN! 

- Emily

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
April 28, 2021 - 1:55 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7718
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

💥 Wanted to share this Irish jig and the Silent film I found to go with it!

Modulation makes this Irish jig (in A dorian mode), interesting! 

"Knocknagow", played by Desi Donnelly.

 

Can find sheet music at thesession.org or check the archives. 

https://fiddlerman.com/forum/i.....-archives/

💥 Found out this was also an old Irish Silent Film (1918) you can view here (free)! 

https://archive.org/details/Knocknagow/

https://www.lanesboro.lib.mn.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/cat_fiddle.jpg

 

- Emily

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online: Jim Dunleavy
Guest(s) 79
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today RCall
Upcoming Sofia Leo, TKDennis, Ms-G, FiddleDetroit, CookiesViolin, Bobby, Elaisa, Michael Browder, EBurrell, Gordon Shumway, ViolinD, dougga, MoonShadows, Astandane, JohnG
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 7718
ABitRusty: 3896
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2690
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
Gordon Shumway: 2422
DanielB: 2379
Mark: 2138
damfino: 2113
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31657
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 81
Topics: 10581
Posts: 134093
Newest Members:
bittruster, fiddlecastro, jackdaniel, romanmills08, creativestringsinfo, rubble_b, mariachi, avagrey92, Alison, David
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16429, KindaScratchy: 1760, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3744, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 5296