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I think the chart is one of various coherent logs of such data, BUT, if you want to play modal music, I think you should not be wanting to play it in EVERY key (agreeing with abitrusty, perhaps) - not initially, anyway (see below) - that is an illusion created by classical music requiring you to practise scales in every key.
The sort of music that was played in modes was popular and accessible. You might have had a penny whistle and didn't know or care what a key was, or you might have had a Rebec and you played in the mode of the middle string (of three), whatever you had tuned it to. You really only cared about one option. And remember that the people who made this music maybe didn't even now what Lydian or Mixolydian meant. And 99% of the music they made was in one "mode". In fact some of the modes only differ according to whether the last note is a tone or a semitone below the tonic, so they probably didn't even think they were different modes, they just played that leading note according to their ear or according to tradition.
The most common violin music is in D major or D minor, so if you learn to play modally in D, as a start, then that's probably as much as you'll ever need or want to do.
To want to play G# Lydian is foolish, almost as foolish as wanting to play G# Locrian. And if you had a friend with a home-made penny whistle who wanted you to accompany them (you'd be lucky if the whistle was exactly G# rather than a quarter tone flat or sharp), then your ears are what is needed.
The key to understanding modes is, read less, listen more.
Andrew
Verified human - the ignominy!
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@ABitRusty -
Yes, it would be fabulous if someone would make a video like that, don't know of any existing ones that are similar - especially geared for the fiddle.
Afraid I'm years away from making a decent video, and to be honest, I can't set a good example - I'm just too short on time & attention span to be interested in drilling myself on modes, or scales, I'm not currently using.
I do want to recognize main features & know where to find more info when I'm ready to use one.
@Gordon Shumway -
I agree listening is very important! ...feel it's paid off well for me in just a few years.
Playing different genres has helped me with some specific modes & scales.
...off the top of my heard, I'm pretty fond of Em & Edor Irish tunes, mixolydian Scottish piper tunes, and phrydgian metal, pop & flamenco music.
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ELCBK said
I have a NEW favorite "Circle of 5ths" Chart... with MODES!
I have found it useful to refer to this chart, but after watching this video by Rick Beato, I can see where changing the order of these concentric rings to reflect the natural order of modes as SCALE DEGREES would be SO MUCH MORE BENEFICIAL (it's already set up like the circle of 5ths)!!!
1st Scale Degree - Outer Ring) Ionian
2nd) Dorian
3rd) Phrygian
4th) Lydian
5th) Mixolydian
6th) Aeolian
7th Scale Degree - Innermost Ring) Locrian
I don't know why this didn't 'click' with me before now! 🥴
Understanding The Chord/Scale Relationship - Rick Beato
...oh great, NOW I wish I knew how to do computer graphics to make a new chart. 🙄
* edit - found a better chart & posted it in the Key Signature Chart Thread
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I just realized that Rick Beato mentioned he taught his son all the chords, etc... when he was FOUR YEARS OLD... wait a minute, his son has Perfect Pitch!!! So, if Rick says the names of 4 notes his son knows what those notes sound like, without hearing them!
I remember some of the Circle of 5ths (that I use frequently), but I still haven't memorized the whole thing. 🙄
A Piano keyboard can definitely help me listen to qualities of scales/modes & chords. I learned notes on a piano before anything else in music, but using standard music notation helps me understand changes in keys/modes and within chord progressions (when I can see them as notes on the staff), much better.
...found a cool place to explore scales & modes! Hooktheory.com has 'Cheat Sheets' where you can learn about/see/listen to & compare scales/modes, along with their popular chords (inversions), chord progressions & popular songs that use them! What you WON'T find there: Blues & Pentatonic studies. 😒
I think it is so amazing that a group of scales & modes ('Modal' Circle of 5ths charts) can ALL be made of the EXACT SAME NOTES... but they sound different! When I listen to Ddor vs Am - I prefer the sound of Ddor MUCH more than Am - same notes & they both sound 'minor', but very different to me. To my surprise, when I listen to just the 1st Triad of Ddor vs Am, I like them BOTH equally! It's because that 1st Triad for Ddor = Dm!
Going to stop here, because this gets into exploring another topic I love - HARMONY!
I really want to get more comfortable with - Pentatonic & Blues Scales!
Five, six, seven & nine note Blues scales!
I've fooled around with the 12 bar Blues progression, but think I better seriously start targeting tunes to learn that use these scales - maybe at least start listening to more of them! ...I'm sure I'll favor minor over major. 😉
Got any favorites to share in the Jazz and Blues Topics, Rock and Pop Topics, Country Topics, or one of the other genre sections?
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Amazing (to me) that ever since I was introduced to the 'Modal Circle of 5ths' chart, it's changed the way I look at tunes!
When I used to see someone mention going to the 'relative key', I used to think: okay, I'm in _ major, so what minor key to I go to? Now I think - which relative mode could be my next playground?
When I look a little closer at a new tune, I'm looking for what the structure is and what 'key' it is notated in. This is sometimes hard for me to determine just by listening, sometimes hard even WITH a key signature! Why?
Just a few observations:
- first of all, ONE key signature can actually indicate any of at least 7 keys/modes.
- sometimes the key is given for a tune, but I find that proposed 'tonic' is not the 1st, or last note in the tune/part.
- sometimes the tonic doesn't feel very prominent anywhere, or maybe for only 1 part.
- Seems these can be a good indication the tune is really in a different Mode, or maybe just parts have been changed to a relative key/mode!
- I believe this perspective might help broaden my choices, so I might develop better harmony & interesting progressions, over time.
...been scrutinizing tunes from the beginning of my fiddling journey, probably because I'm learning on my own. The Session has been an important part of this, because it's like having a whole roasted turkey on a platter - I can't just look at it... I have to pull it apart to find the stuffing! There are just SO MANY CELTIC TUNES there - notated with audio, variations, and tons of discussions that fuel my curiosity!
So, if I want to find tunes in a certain key, or type, one place I always search is thesession.org.
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OMG!
I found this SEVEN page paper written by 3 people from the Dublin Institute of Technology & I almost wanted to post a link in the 'Laugh a Day' thread, but it's serious!
KEY INFERENCE FROM IRISH TRADITIONAL MUSIC SCORES AND RECORDINGS
"Proceedings of the 14th Sound and Music Computing Conference, July 5-8 [2017], Espoo, Finland"
Talks about experiments using 'Key-finding' algorithms so large databases of solo & session audio recordings can automatically be analyzed & annotated! It gets particularly interesting because of ITM's "modal nature".
There were problems with frequent errors in Neighboring Keys, Relative Keys & Parallel Keys.
It's funny that they need to use musicians for reference, but there's disagreement between them (adding possible errors) - so the suggested solution is use more musicians that annotate ITM! ...don't know if taking an average of opinions would help.
...no, I haven't read the WHOLE thing - just skimmed over it, but it's worth taking a peak at if you've been hanging around this thread!
It is not rare in Irish music that a tune labelled as e minor changes its
“tonic center” for a few bars to the neighbour key D, e.g.
the well known Cooley’s reel.
...there's a bunch more, but this last one is still the best, I think. (lol)
It is expected that most errors made by the key-matching algorithms will be on tunes where annotators disagree.
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This David Bennett video came out 6 months ago, glad it caught my eye. 🤗
OMG, this is a FABULOUS comparison... ONE tune (Norwegian Wood - the Beatles!), played in 7 different modes!
WOW - not only easy to HEAR the difference modes can make, but shows you what changes in notation & chords!!!
I think it's important to see how these modes change in 'feeling' - helps me decide what I might use to change, or add, expression in other tunes!
🤔... think I might be able to use the Music Speed Changer App to change modes, BUT the 'RipX DAW' looks like it might be easier to use for separating vocals & the different instrument tracks of a song than PreSonus Studio One!
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The David Bennett video (prev post) showed 1 song changed as the different modes were used.
THIS video by Galen Graf, "How to transform a theme (scalar mapping demonstration)", shows 1 song changed with different 'types' of scales... he also describes some changes of orchestration & harmony (I suggest maybe think about THAT later).
I'm really happy seeing this thread end in this direction of thought!
The book Galen mentions at the end of the video, "A Geometry of Music", by Prof. Dmitri Tymoczko - I took a look at it. I'm not trying to dissuade serious students of music theory & composition from purchasing it (Dmitri deserves the $)...
For us average hobbyists → Dmitri has done several amazing presentations available to watch on YT, AND has a wonderful site - Mad Musical Science!
ON THE SITE - there are 3 short videos showing an easy to understand, but novel way to think of 1.) scales, 2.) chords & 3.) chord progressions.
NEXT... if you click on his 'software' link you'll see a whole series of virtual/interactive playgrounds to explore! I aim to dig around there this Summer.
I also like using the resouces at Hook Theory - great tutorials & their 'cheat sheets' are virtual/interactive Scales & Modes that let you hear & see not only notes, but also chord functions & common progressions.
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these guys are awesome. very good videos. Really like the production quality... like at 6:38. Cmaj. 😅
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YES, YES, YES!
LOVE this is a simple formula, with a simple progression, and it's interesting!
I had started experimenting with modal interchange, except I didn't stop at just doing one interchange per progression & soon realized that was too much for me to keep track of - unless I write everything down somewhere. 🥴 I have to really love something to put that much work into it... needless to say, went on the back burner.
Also, LOVE that even though Adam Maness keeps it simple, he still auditions several other modes.
Great video... gettin' motivated! 
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Happy New Year's Eve Everyone (the New Year is still an hour away for us)!
I was wondering what to ring the New Year in with (just me, Kevin & the 2 cats tonight). Not really feeling like reminiscing about anything this last year - so my favorite minor key (or dorian mode) tunes just aren't cutting it.
Maybe phrygian, or locrian?
...of course I thought of this too late to do much about it tonight, except to try a few out.
🤔 Suppose I should start thinking about next St. Patrick's Day... this Jimlapbap video has me motivated to try something different for 2025.
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I love all the info in this thread!
...still lazy, lovin' using the Modal Circle of Fifths Chart, but haven't gotten around to modifying it, yet (post #143).
Anyway, ran across a video showing another cool way to understand using 'modes', from Nathan Giroux!
Oh man, he's still asking me to memorize more stuff! 🤨 Mixolydian (to me) makes me think of the GH bagpipes! 😁 Like how he describes the other modes, though.
🤔... like how he presented this. I'm going to have to check out some of Nathan's other videos.
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Been wondering why I prefer trad/folk/pop tunes that use something other than a Major scale...
Actually, I don't hate super happy/high energy tunes - it's just exhausting staying at that height of emotion too long (couple Polkas & I'd be done). I have to chose tunes I know I'll want to play & hear over and over, and over again. Of course I don't want to feel too much 'one foot in the grave', either. I understand how important 'energy' is for dance music, but I'm playing for listening - not dancing. There's so many emotions/moods, I want to feel.
Speculating, but I'm not so sure most Classical pieces (designated in a Major key) stay 'completely' in that key (all the way through). I usually feel I hear plenty of accidentals added for relief... but I could be mistaken.
Much Klezmer is VERY high energy and I don't hear much use of a Major scale.
Anyway, been thinking if I had to pick just one scale/mode... seems I've been loving Phrygian Dominant for years - and didn't even know it! It's a scale AND a mode, but I'm going to have to see how I can put it to use.
OOPS, wait a minute... Hijaz IS Klezmer's 'Major scale' - and it's the SAME as Phrygian Dominant!!! 🤔... so, my new favorite 'Major' scale doesn't sound super 'major'! This could get interesting!
Phrygian Dominant's been mentioned earlier in this thread (Gordon Shumway) & I've seen it elsewhere, but what I didn't realize... some threads (before 'my' time) had some interest/discussion on this!
Indian Classical music intonation chart Thread (2012) - Post #7, especially interesting (pertaining to Vakulabharanam Raga/Phrygian Dominant & intonation).
Some Backing Tracks From Youtube Thread (2015) - EXCELLECT thread full of backing track examples! Phrygian Dominant info in Post #11, PLUS BACKING VIDEO!
E Phrygian Dominant Revistited Thread (2014) - OP shares 'Waves of The Danube' as an excellent example!
Major Scale in Fourths: modal applications for blues Thread (2015) - Post #8, talking about the the 5th mode of the Harmonic Minor Scale, Phrygian Dominant (also called 'ahava rabah scale').
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ELCBK said
Anyway, been thinking if I had to pick just one scale/mode... seems I've been loving Phrygian Dominant for years - and didn't even know it! It's a scale AND a mode, but I'm going to have to see how I can put it to use.
Hadn't we already answered all this by page two of this thread?
OOPS, wait a minute...Hijaz IS Klezmer's 'Major scale' - and it's the SAME as Phrygian Dominant!!! 🤔... so, my new favorite 'Major' scale doesn't sound 'major'! This could get interesting!
Whatever got garbled there got garbled good and proper!
- Freygish, Ahavo Rabboh, or Phrygian dominant scale resembles the Phrygian mode, .Among the most well-known pieces composed in this mode are "Hava Nagila" and "Ma yofus". It is comparable to the Maqam Hijaz found in Arabic music.[47]
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klezmer
Freygisch is neither major nor minor. If you find a Wiki page that says different, you should edit it, not learn it!
This modern modal crap is just modern nerdery designed to blind you with science.
Andrew
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@Gordon Shumway -
Appreciate your opinion.
Still, think the info in the videos was worth sharing - especially some of the song examples that don't sound what I'd consider typical of the scale. I've learned more about what I like in harmony/chords as time has passed, also where I'd like to venture into improvisation & backing. This scale is used in quite a few different genres, so I'll build upon their use & similarities.
Phrygian Dominant Scale goes by many different names (different Cultures, different genres) - is also known as 'Phrygian MAJOR'. It's in Wikipedia, but also found many more sources (more than I'd care to cite).
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Forgive me for editing my post after you replied. I hope it hasn't affected the sway of the discussion. I decided that my denial of modulation in modal music might side-track us into a discussion of the plagal forms of modes. But perhaps I should have kept my plea for simplicity.
We are talking at cross-purposes, of course - you love encyclopedias; but I hate them and believe they should come with a health warning.
Especially wiki which is by definition an encyclopedia where everyone gets a say. Encyclopedias are not structured educational courses, they are more like vortices where you get sucked in and then passed from reference to reference like a pingpong ball in a tornado. You might find that thrilling, but of course it is also confusing.
(FWIW, 35 years ago I had amassed a collection of encyclopedias in French, German and Spanish. I had a very intelligent Argentinian gf who spoke French and English. One day after doing a typical pingpong ball dance, I wrote "Death to Encylopedias" in a notebook, and my gf agreed. Since then I got rid of all of them, but the internet is worse)
Additionally, the theory of traditional modes is well known, and so people imagine it is somewhat universal and can be applied to modern and ethnic modes.
Here's inanity "the Phrygian mode is related to the modern natural minor scale, also known as the Aeolian mode, but with the second scale degree lowered by a semitone," All being on the white keys, every mode is related to every other mode with the necessary changes, duh!
-----------------------------------------
You want even more names for the Phrygian dominant?
A warning is to be found here: -
In the Berklee method, it is known as the Mixolydian ♭9 ♭13 chord scale, a Mixolydian scale with a lowered 9th (2nd) and lowered 13th (6th), used in secondary dominant chord scales for V7/III and V7/VI.
And if we click on the Berklee Method link we see at the start of para 3: -
Branford Marsalis notes how Berklee music theory may be an inadequate description of traditional jazz as well having a tendency toward prescriptivism: "Berklee has its own system of doing things, the Berklee way, the Berklee method. They basically say that when you write things that are theoretically against the Berklee method, then they're incorrect....
The Berklee method is just one example of the whole of Western Music Theory inappropriately applying itself to other music.
-------------------------------------------
So someone (a Westerner, natch) has decided to distinguish between the major and the minor Phrygian (EFG vs EFG#) simply because one has a natural third and the other a raised one. The "major Phrygian" is an ethnic mode; the "minor Phrygian" is a church mode. They are unrelated, to say nothing of the matter of the second note being flattened! In addition, church modes weren't considered major or minor until much later.
This raises the question, is it a coincidence that they are both called Phrygian and both have a lowered second? I could guess the P.D. got its name from the Phrygian mode, but since it's the dominant of a harmonic minor, the name must be quite a late invention when modes were almost forgotten? AI gives me an unexpected answer "the use of the term "Phrygian dominant" in music theory and practice is estimated to have emerged in the late 1970s or early 1990s." Well, if it's that late, I'm not going to speculate any further. AI thinks "Freygish" is undatably early. (It gives us the possibility that Freygish indeed goes back to original ancient Greek roots, whereas Church modes are comparatively modern nonsense. But I have studied-post-grad Greek and know that one must bear in mind that oral transmission needn't be more than four generations old before it becomes lost in the mists of time).
I don't know what Ponce called this prelude, except that he offered it as D minor (last of 24), tongue in cheek?
I think you mentioned David Bowie. It does add something important to the mix. If you take a guitar and play an E major chord in its usual first position, then shift your left hand up a fret to second position but without barring, or do the same with A major, you'll hear a very typical "Spanish" sound. It's a phenomenon dictated by the guitar's tuning. Western music theory ties itself in knots trying to describe it, and pointlessly, because Western music theory was developed initially only to describe Western music.
If you love being bounced about from reference to reference, then that's your pleasure, but I wouldn't recommend it to others.
In fact, Wiki acknowledges there's a name for it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....abbit_hole
Andrew
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Gordon Shumway said
AI thinks "Freygish" is undatably early. (It gives us the possibility that Freygish indeed goes back to original ancient Greek roots, whereas Church modes are comparatively modern nonsense.
At this point I'm tempted to try to recall what I used to know of Greek tetrachords (from Ancient Greek Music by Martin West, 1992). Here's the wikihole. (which doesn't mention West - he gets a mention in the genus link)
In West the basic half-scale is EFA with a fourth note inserted. That fourth note could be either G (obviously) or F# (somewhat obviously), or the quarter-tone between E and F (far from obviously). BCE - plus its fourth note - completed the octave. What Klezmer musicians know as Freygish possibly evolved from the above with G# as the fourth note of the first tetrachord, then BCDE. But I admit that's no less tenuous than developing it out of the harmonic minor, which would obviously be a very late development. That choice of EFA would seem to be the clear origin of everything labelled Phrygian, except that it was how every other Greek mode also commenced (except for the enharmonic - quarter-tone ones). The two tetrachords, if completely independent, would have given 9 modes (3x3), but the Greeks only used 7 of them. How tempting is it to assume they eliminated the two variants with quarter tones only in the second tetrachord?
Andrew
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@Gordon Shumway -
I'm interested in any potential tools for enhancing/changing the tonality of a tune/piece, or for creating something new. Just happens I like the feel of the Phrygian Dominant Scale. Think it's good to acknowlege aliases, can make things seem less obscure.
'Mode' has different meanings. I feel every scale has 'modes' (whether commonly used, or not) in context they utilize the same notes/note intervals of a 'parent' scale, but in a different order. This affects arpeggios, note & chord functions in Western theory. The relationship between relative modes is important to me (like in the Modal Circle of 5ths Chart) when considering substitutions in melody and harmony, or for evoking different moods.
People are going to use what they become familiar hearing.
Starting out, most folks are probably only used to hearing Major and Minor scales. I got used to Dorian, and Mixolydian, only after listening to/playing a bunch of Irish & Scottish tunes. Nicolas Slonimsky wrote the 'Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns' (Internet Archive). This book has some REALLY WILD stuff in it! It's interesting that John Coltrane & Frank Zappa were highly influenced by this book, Zappa even became a good friend of Slonimsky.
Found some of these as video - a great opportunity to listen to scales (you might not otherwise) in different keys & play along with ones you like! ...just been recently checking these out, myself.
Music Scales, Arpeggios, Pattern & Chords Exercises - 250 Video Playlist!
Phrygian Dominant Scale in all 12 Keys (Mango Town Plays)
Wikipedia & YT (and anything written/said by a human or A.I.) are not gospel (to me), just sometimes a launching point.
Rabbit holes... "life's a box of chocolates"!
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