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Traditional Fiddle Intonation vs. Classical Violinist Intonation
Different Venues, Different Intonation?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (26 votes) 
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ELCBK
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March 26, 2021 - 10:31 pm
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Got to thinking I should mention more about the "Ear Training Video".

Starting at approx 21 minutes in, the discussion gets to the meat & potatoes as far as telling us which intonation to chose, where... and why. 

Thinking the moment an instrument is picked up to be played for the 1st time, should be the moment to start ear training.

Maybe everyone should try to start getting a grasp of what's possible with intonation after about 1 year of playing.  Think it's ridiculous to wait until you've been playing 10 years - this seems too important. 

This is an over-simplification, but I see "intonation is to the enjoyment of hearing music", like "baking is to the enjoyment of eating food". 

If we are taught there is only 1 spot on our fingerboard for each note, it's like being taught the best way to bake a cake or loaf of bread is by using a straight (no doctoring), "box mix".  But learning why there are different temperaments and how to use intonation, it's like learning what type/ratio of ingredients and method of mixing/cooking makes a really great cake or loaf of bread! 

I understand that many people are happy with Chili from a can and cake straight from a box mix - but if you are the one doing the cooking anyway, why not learn to make that little extra effort to reap huge rewards? 

 

https://omgchocolatedesserts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Strawberry-Chocolate-Cake-2.jpg

 

Btw, we don't really need a fingerboard... I'm sure I sound like I don't have one, probably for a while longer.😁 

 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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maybe one day.

so far 1st position seems appropriate for george whites favorite.  Ive got enough to keep me busy low on the fiinger board.  havent really got an itch for bluegrass so havent seen the need to move up the neck yet..but I do understand the advantages of shifting for certain pieces and styles of music.  I just only have so much time to practice between work and everything else.  Ive decided to focus on one area for now.  more power to anyone taking on several things at once though..I get spread to thin and end up getting bogged down.

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty - 

Not sure this is about playing in higher positions, but just why and when to play a little higher intonation on some specific notes for the occasion - or flatted, or neutral, for double stops and expression, etc...😊 

Maybe I'm missing the point... don't think so, but always a possibility!🤪

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ABitRusty
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OHHHHH..ok..

gotcha..

I was windering why youd want to play fiddle tunes out of first.  lol

sry..yah gotta break-it- down sometimes fer meh..

fainting-1344

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ELCBK
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@Mark -

Just wanted to say Thank You, again - for the great "Ear Training" video. 

Sometimes it was hard to stick with it, but glad I did! 

The different videos on this subject have helped clarify thoughts I've had since I first started listening to so many different types of violin music. 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/58/8e/27/588e27594348841ac22e64875f01f976.jpg

It's important to me, to be aware of these different intonation situations - even if I probably can't tell the difference between my playing deliberately out of tune and a mistake, for now. (lol) 

- Emily

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ELCBK
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Just got a new Peterson "StroboClip HD" tuner to play with.  It has many preset tunings, but 1st I'm just interested in finding out how out of tune my actual basic fiddle tuning has been.  

...oh, yeah - it's out. 🙄

I was truely grateful that Mark had suggested I try the "Intonia" app software, a couple months ago.  When I checked it out, I felt it would be too hard to read while I was playing.

Now, I've found "6 Tips to Significantly Improve Your Intonation" from the Violin Lab Channel on YouTube.  These are GREAT tips, but at 13:10, Beth Blackerby compares a Bb to a slightly sharp Bb, with the "Intonia" software - drove me nuts! 🤪 ...maybe you all have better hearing than I do. (lol)

 

Definitely worth watching - different, she talks about using TE tuner app for drones, too.  GregW has recommended drones from somewhere, but shoot - I forgit.

 

giphy.gif

 

...can't tell you all how happy I am my new little "StroboClip" tuner actually shows battery usage!  Now, if it just transforms my intonation... well, amazing things could happen. 😏

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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May 7, 2021 - 8:29 pm
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thanks for the heads up @elcbk !  needed another tuner..just amazoned it and supposed to be here Monday.  this thing will even tune a fish according to comments on amazon...lol..  get it!!?laughfacepalm

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ABitRusty
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ahh  14:20  one of the many things I need to watch out for.   I notice i tend to bow closer to finger board than i probably should.

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JohnG
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Interesting, something else I could spend my money on! I found it at our local Guitar Center store, about 3 miles away, for only two dollars more than Amazon, and it would support my local economy!

Decisions, decisions! lol

The old curmudgeon!

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ABitRusty
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JohnG said
Interesting, something else I could spend my money on! I found it at our local Guitar Center store, about 3 miles away, for only two dollars more than Amazon, and it would support my local economy!

Decisions, decisions! lol

  

it would be dangerous for me to have a guitar center 3 miles away!!  lol  yup I would purchase there if closer.  Im hoping the clip fits good on violin.   @elcbk thoughts?

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ELCBK
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...edited this.

@ABitRusty , @JohnG - 

Smiley Broke Apart Smiley

 

Had a gripe with my 1st (pinch clip) - I didn't like clipping it to a peg and not really accurate. 😒

My 2nd tuner clamped on the edge of the body, but had a lot of wiggle room in accuracy. 😒

The site shows the StroboClip HD (also a pinch clip) attaches to the back of the scroll, make sure the screen is to the left (or your hand will obscure the view) - that works great!  It swivels and flips up - also, much easier to see this display and know you're in tune when the strobe stops moving! 🤗

Seeing it better is a big thing for me, since I have to enlarge this forum 150% on my laptop - just to read anything. (lol) 

I was pleasantly surprised in Concert tuning - was pretty much spot on when I played "Isabella"s Lullaby", with all those flats and shifting! 

BUT, WHAT REALLY BUGS ME - is I have my head all squared away for a bunch of flats, I'm visualizing flats... and the tuner only shows me SHARPS!dazed

Think the "Sweet" presets will be great for the traditional folk tunes, but I've kept in mind what AndrewH said about his concert tuning, too! 

You'll like it. 😊

giphy.gif

 

...guess I'm lucky I can still see approximately where my fingers are on the fingerboard, but I better get back to the lab on vibrato (been neglected). 🙄 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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ELCBK said
...edited this.

@ABitRusty , @JohnG - 

Smiley Broke Apart Smiley

 

Had a gripe with my 1st (pinch clip) - I didn't like clipping it to a peg and not really accurate. 😒

My 2nd tuner clamped on the edge of the body, but had a lot of wiggle room in accuracy. 😒

The site shows the StroboClip HD (also a pinch clip) attaches to the back of the scroll, make sure the screen is to the left (or your hand will obscure the view) - that works great!  It swivels and flips up - also, much easier to see this display and know you're in tune when the strobe stops moving! 🤗

Seeing it better is a big thing for me, since I have to enlarge this forum 150% on my laptop - just to read anything. (lol) 

I was pleasantly surprised in Concert tuning - was pretty much spot on when I played "Isabella"s Lullaby", with all those flats and shifting! 

BUT, WHAT REALLY BUGS ME - is I have my head all squared away for a bunch of flats, I'm visualizing flats... and the tuner only shows me SHARPS!dazed

Think the "Sweet" presets will be great for the traditional folk tunes, but I've kept in mind what AndrewH said about his concert tuning, too! 

You'll like it. 😊

giphy.gif

 

...guess I'm lucky I can still see approximately where my fingers are on the fingerboard, but I better get back to the lab on vibrato (been neglected). 🙄 

- Emily

  

i bet there is a way to flip the displaying of sharps vs flats in the settings somewhere.  looking forward to using this next week..sspecially the presets.  like the strobe feature..thanks again for the info on this

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JohnG
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Got my Peterson Stroboclip today and am liking it! Tried it by clipping on tuning peg, but wasn't thrilled about that. Saw the previous post here about clipping to scroll and it works much better. Thanks to @ELCBK for the tip.

The old curmudgeon!

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ELCBK
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I had a rude awakening last night. 😳 

Anyone who's heard me play knows I don't have perfect pitch - far from it, but I think I get close enough to tell what a note is. 

That said, I do play a lot by ear - and trust that what I hear is close... but last night, I had my doubts. 

It's not new for me to try playing music written for, or played by other instruments, so I played along with a trumpet from a video score last night - and got thrown for a loop.  I was getting along pretty well, just playing by ear, but there were some complicated riffs that were hard to discern, even at the lowest speed. 

I thought I looked closely at the score in the video, but when I played the riff - it didn't sound like the video audio.  ...was my Edgar out of tune?  No.  Was my intonation THAT bad? 🤔 ...debatable. (lol) 

Seriously, it had me worried!

Turns out the play-along score in the video was in a different key - than the audio! 

So, I inquired - here's the answer I received: 

The recording and transcription are both in F concert, however in this transcription the trumpets/horn aren't transposed. 

"Did you know that not all instruments sound like a C on the piano when you play a C on the instrument??" Concert Pitch Transposition

https://www.mysheetmusictranscriptions.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/concert-pitch-2-768x518.pngImage Enlarger

So, back to my OP for this thread, C is a C is not a C!

I suppose this is the same as someone in Baroque tuning, or a down-tuned Cajun fiddle following standard notation for fingering, but my brain keeps shouting at me - this is all LUDICROUS! 

...reading the Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy version I want to play - guess it's not much worse than learning Alto Clef - PITA. (lol) 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/a5/b8/efa5b8314d3f4743bb790baf9d51eb43.jpg

 

I know there's a few members here, that play some of these instruments and are WAY ahead of me on this, but I don't know how your ears/brain handle it - respect!

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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@elcbk dont they just play whats written and its up to whoever composes the score to account for that?  I was under the impression there isnt any on the fly transposing going on.   I didnt think a horn player had to think..hmm they want a Bb here so i need to play a C..

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

You'd think, right? 

I was never in Band - my Daughter played flute, but that's already a Concert pitch instrument.

There's a cheat sheet for the instruments that aren't Concert Pitch C, but this is wild. 

...and there's more than Bb instruments mentioned at Bandnotes.com (my linked source).  Here's an excerpt: 

Clarinets, bass clarinets, trumpets, tenor saxes and baritones playing treble clef are Bb instruments: when they play a C it sounds like a Bb on the piano. So, if they want to play a concert Bb scale, they start on a C (they have to think up a whole step). Concert C is their D, Concert Ab is their Bb. 

By the time you are an eighth grader, you should know your scales (right off, no hesitation and without looking up key signatures or asking what note you start on or anything!) for the following concert pitches :

  • Concert C
  • Concert F
  • Concert Bb
  • Concert Eb
  • Concert Ab
  • Concert G 

And... you should be able to find your scale for any other concert pitch that a conductor may request.

 

I don't know how they learn the notes others are playing, but hear a different pitch, other than my examples of Baroque tuning or down-tuned/alternative tunings for the fiddle.

...idk, my brain is fried.  I'm going to hear a pitch, maybe even a micro-tone, somewhere within an octave - as it relates to piano... might not even be the right octave, because I only care about what I can comfortably play. 🙄 

BUT, it appears I'll just have to do a little 'transposition' on the fly if I want to learn this particular piece of music I like. 

What's really bad, I bought a trumpet to give to one of the Grandkids, later this year - now I have absolutely NO idea how to teach anything about pitch with it!

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ABitRusty
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🧐 STOP...

gib me the mouse and keyboard now!!  

🤣

why cant you JUST play some nice Dmaj jigs and be haaaapppy!??

😐facepalm

banana

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ELCBK
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https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1a/cc/7b/1acc7b916c702d3d1e1c62cad8dcc7ad--anime-male-anime-guys.jpg@ABitRusty -

IT'S AN EAR WORM! 

He was a famous fiddle man from out Chicago way
He had a funky style that no one else could play
He was the top man at his craft
But then his number came up and he was gone with the draft
He's in the army now, a-fiddlin' reveille
He's the boogie woogie fiddle boy of Company B

They made him play the fiddle for his Uncle Sam
It really brought him down because he could not jam
The captain seemed to understand
Because the next day the cap'n went out and drafted a band
And now the company jumps when he plays reveille
He's the boogie woogie fiddle boy of Company B 

 

...it's NOT going to go away - I've already started! 

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ABitRusty
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exactly

hope you know i was jjst joking.. and that you get it sorted out

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Thanx!

I watched too much Star Trek while growing up... the wrath of Khan. 🤭 

 

...if anyone else gets infected by this ear worm, check out: 

Boogie Woogie on Violin, Viola & Cello Thread

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