FORUM

Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Vent- I was just Kicked Off A Well Known Violin Forum
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (10 votes) 
Avatar
starise
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2019 - 1:55 pm
Member Since: September 9, 2016
Forum Posts: 118
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I know that title doesn't bode well for me here. I have learned a few things as a result of this happening. Some people are self insulated against alternate ways of thinking about some things. To the point that they would remove those alternate thinkers..one of those being mua.

I just want to say that if anyone ever has anything against an opinion of mine please tell me up front and I'll be man enough to move on. And I'm always ok to agree to disagree. I'm not even sure what all the problem was. 

I bought a pair of Wittner geared tuning pegs from Fiddlerman and I was asking a few questions about putting them on my fiddle. One particular self righteous individual proceeded to tell me that I was promoting vandalizing violins. This same individual also derides those just beginning to try to maintain their violins as idiots who all need a professional luthier. He regularly derides and "talks down" to anyone who would get their hands dirty working on a violin.

After putting up with this in various instances I decided to fire back with a few of my opinions about him in general and what I thought about what he thinks. In my opinion people who have the interest in maintaining their instrument maybe at a deeper level should not be derided, made fun of, called names etc. Yes we will make mistakes. That's because we are learning. I didn't use profanity or name calling. I just leveled with him.

It was probably me posting the pirate picture with his face added hugging the fluffy orange parrot that got me booted. It was half in jest and half serious. I wanted to make the point that if he could make fun of us, why couldn't I make fun of him? We do that to each other all the time on another forum and it's considered funny. We take it in stride. I guess they are a little more anal over there.

Apparently they didn't see it that way. They not only deleted that thread but every other post I made on that site. I don't feel it was fair to take away all of my past input and dump me with not so much as an email communicating to me why they did it. I would have had more respect for them if they had done that and went my merry way. No one said anything. I tried to log onto the site and I was wiped from it completely.

To be honest I didn't fit there anyways. I'm not a classical music snob. I didn't want to admit it. I tried not to accept it, but yes, there are real snobs over there. It isn't a large number. Many over there are fine people.

PLEASE if I ever do anything considered in any way offensive tell me. Even if you're going to eliminate me on the site I appreciate knowing why. I don't plan on being a nuisance here. I've been a regular on many other sites and am a team player. Never had an issue on any of the other sites.I want to learn and help if I can. I'm a beginner at only around 3 years on the violin.

I don't feel particularly comfortable in most classical circles I have been in. This incident hasn't helped my thinking on it. I also enrolled in a payed teaching site for a year. Wasn't a small expenditure. When the owner found out I played fiddle music she pretty much shunned me. No input on my playing at all. She has my money so I guess it doesn't matter. I really want to like these classical music people, but man, they make it tough.

This is what I'm tempted to do-moony-2173I am instead going to wish them all well. thumbs-upThey deserve each other.

Avatar
MoonShadows
Stroudsburg, PA
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2019 - 2:19 pm
Member Since: January 30, 2019
Forum Posts: 438
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sorry you had to go through that, Tim. I've been kicked off a couple of forums in my day (not violin ones), usually, like you, when I decide to speak my mind at someone or something I really feel is out of line or ridiculous. It takes a lot to get me to that point, but when I do, I sometimes lead with my mouth and not my head. If you didn't feel like you fit in (classical circle) then it is probably better you are gone. It will take a while to get over the "sting"...it usually does for me. Look at the bright side...now you have more time to spend on the Fiddlerman Forum!

Jim

Fiddling for Older Folks - Adventures in Learning to Play the Fiddle as an Adult

The Friends of the Sons of Liberty - Three Inspiring Young Men playing Early American Fiddle Music 

Avatar
AndrewH
Sacramento, California
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2019 - 2:40 pm
Member Since: November 5, 2017
Forum Posts: 464
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

To be honest, if I were moderating there, I would probably have at least deleted the pirate picture and warned you that the next one would get you booted. I think that crossed a line because it would have been a purely personal insult directed at the person and not his opinions. (I wouldn't have booted you from the site just for that or without warning you first. They seem to have a hair-trigger for it, though, which is unfortunate.)

As for the deletion of all your content, I suspect it's actually more because of their antiquated software than anything else.

But if it makes you feel better, if I were moderating there, I would have booted the other guy long ago (if he's who I think he is -- I never saw the thread). His total contribution to that forum seems to be calling everything crap except for 100+ year old violins, and deriding most shops other than his own, and most people there seem to actively dislike him.

Avatar
AndrewH
Sacramento, California
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2019 - 3:09 pm
Member Since: November 5, 2017
Forum Posts: 464
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

That said... I personally feel more comfortable there than here, despite the handful of snobs there, because here I have to tread lightly to avoid coming across as a snob. I'm an outsider on both forums, over there because I'm mostly self-taught and here because I'm a classical player with very little exposure to fiddle music until recently. I think one of the difficulties classical players have is that many have similarly had almost no exposure to fiddle music and aren't sure how to communicate with a fiddler. So it's not that they're being snobs, it's more that they feel like fish out of water themselves. (Some of them may even have encountered fiddle snobs before -- and yes, fiddle snobs exist.) I've heard classical players say that, in their experience, fiddlers get offended easily, and I have to say I can understand that point of view as well even if it's only true of a small number of fiddlers.

Avatar
Irv
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2019 - 3:23 pm
Member Since: December 23, 2017
Forum Posts: 1142
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

So, @starise , never mind all that.  How do you like the pegs?

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

Avatar
Pete_Violin
Utah
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2019 - 4:10 pm
Member Since: March 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 308
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I was posting in http://www.violinist.com for about a week and one of my posts was replied to that made me feel inferior and lower than dirt.  I left the forum.

While I am sure the folks on violinist.com are decent overall, I have found Fiddlerman so much more helpful and nice.

Stay with us, @starise 

- Pete -

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2019 - 7:51 pm
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 645
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Only forum I've been kicked off of was Delcamp. It happened while I was away on a week's holiday, so it took me by surprise - Delcamp is famous for never giving warnings or reasons, although the reasons were obvious - I'd had enough of them and they seemed more like a cult than a forum, and I think I had made a sarcastic comment along those lines. I emailed another member to ask what had gone on, but he didn't reply, so I thought mneugh.

Andrew

Avatar
x Coach
Member
Members
May 21, 2019 - 8:25 pm
Member Since: November 22, 2018
Forum Posts: 38
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I started reading another violin forum a couple of weeks ago and also found it to be more classical oriented and one individual to be insulting and disrespectful, what a coincidence.

Avatar
starise
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2019 - 8:50 pm
Member Since: September 9, 2016
Forum Posts: 118
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@MoonShadows, I guess you can relate to it then.You probably know how it feels. It isn't a good feeling when you've been deleted and there's no discussion about it first. The main reason I didn't feel I "fit in" to classical was mainly the general feeling I got from that particular group. Sort of alienated me. I like some classical music. I'm just not a snob and I don't like snobs.

It is probably best I'm no longer there. Thanks!

AndrewH, I agree that a warning would have been best. What I did was something I copied from another guy on line who would take people's picture and photoshop it into stuff. It was hilarious! I thought the pirate turned out pretty well. I was actually looking over a picture of an orangutan before I decided on the pirate. In hindsight it wasn't right. If you agree that was slightly insulting, then why don't they see that this person has been insulting people there verbally for a long time? He insulted me and at least three other people directly simply because we were working on our violins. Why is he still there? Why wasn't he deleted? The reason I did what I did was because he was insulting everyone. Anyways I guess I didn't help and I would have taken the pirate down if it really roasted that many nuts over there.

Thanks Andrew for showing me how some, including yourself, view these things. I don't necessarily dislike classical music. I just bought Albion One the defacto movie cinematic library and I have several others. That's all  orchestra.symphonic/classical and probably further from fiddle music than anything. If you have the notation I can likely play it to the actual part very realistically. I've been working with digital audio workstations for a long time. If you ever wish to discuss anything classical please consider me as I have a musical interest in a lot of it, but I just don't fit in "you know where". I believe there are some professionally trained here that would dispute the fact that we are all "fiddlers" . TBH I sort of fell into the whole Irish music thing because I was intrigued by some of the music and there were local groups here I could play in. If there had been a community orchestra instead things might have been much different. I'm not really averse to any of it, I just don't like snobs. 

Thanks for your comments. Yes to be fair the other guy should not be there. Why is there a double standard?

Irv, I love the pegs! Fiddlerman recommends a luthier installation. I can see why. I reamed one of the holes just a pinch too large. Wittner has a fix in their service support bulletin that worked very well that involves a small shim made of sandpaper.A pro luthier probably would have used a bushing. It's very EASY to make those holes too large. Due to the taper of the peg and the composite construction it is easy to accidentally misjudge the fit. For me everything worked out ok. The pegs are so much easier to tune. One after effect of the change was a brighter violin sound. Possibly due to more mass in the new pegs and a more secure fit of the pegs in the pegbox. I highly recommend them, but I would try a tight fit multiple times before I reamed anything. I would ream very little each time using a special peg box reamer. The pegs only need to go in so the part that turns the strings is in the center of the peg box. The fit must be tight at that location. Too loose and the pegs will turn making the whole thing very frustrating. Err on tight, not on loose.

Pete, I'm very sorry to hear of your experiences there. I was there probably three years. I started when I decided to play the violin. People there like to swing around experience and titles to make a point. I overlooked a lot of that. I could have probably worked through this had they not deleted me. I feel the same way you do about Fiddlerman. He made videos to show how to do certain things to the violin. It isn't discouraged here. We aren't told to go look for a luthier if we want to try something. I realize there are people who play and live in distant locations with no luthier around to help. Some players simply like to work on violins. To each his or her own. Many of the people there are great. Good to meet you here! I'll stick around.

Avatar
AndrewH
Sacramento, California
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2019 - 10:46 pm
Member Since: November 5, 2017
Forum Posts: 464
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I'm not saying that there is a clear line between classical players and fiddlers. Historically there wasn't a big divide between the two in Europe -- many of the leading Scottish and Scandinavian fiddlers of the 18th and 19th centuries also played in orchestras, and obviously gypsy fiddlers were a huge influence on classical composers. There are still people who play both classical violin and traditional fiddle professionally, but it seems to me like people on both sides are more likely to outright reject the other style today than they would have been in 1800. As a result, it may well be that many people on v.com aren't just don't want to stick their necks out any more even if they personally have nothing against fiddlers.

And yes, I realize there are some people here who are absolutely not fiddlers at all (at least one here is almost exclusively interested in Baroque violin) but a much higher percentage here are fiddlers than there. I just sometimes don't feel like I'm contributing much here because anything I have to say has only slight relevance to the conversations here: the technical part is often completely irrelevant to fiddle music, and whatever knowledge I have about instruments and bows above intermediate level often seems to get dismissed as snobbery. There's an aspiring luthier population here, which is nice (and largely absent from v.com, though v.com has one DIYer who may be a pro or semi-pro violinist), but I personally have little to say about that apart from having some awareness of what qualities classical players are looking for in instruments and bows.

I do sympathize with DIYers more than most v.com members do, because I grew up in the Middle East, in a city that probably didn't have a single string player within a 5-hour drive for most of the time I lived there. The nearest luthier was probably more than a thousand miles away.

I think many people on v.com are aware of how that forum is less than welcoming to both fiddlers and beginners, and would like to change it, but they haven't really been successful at that because there is a certain clique that continues to drive away most people who don't follow a certain defined path in learning the violin.

Interestingly, there are several Facebook groups that seem to do a much better job of catering to classical and fiddle players alike, probably through strict moderation with well-defined guidelines.

Avatar
Bob
Members

Regulars
May 22, 2019 - 7:57 am
Member Since: July 13, 2017
Forum Posts: 232
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've always told folks, "if you want cold criticism", go to V.com, "if you want support and encouragement" go to Fiddlerman.com.

And on V.com if you EVER say anything good about Chinese made violins be prepared for the LT attack 🙂 (I don't think he plays any instrument though!)

Bob in Lone Oak, Texas

Avatar
starise
Members

Regulars
May 22, 2019 - 8:40 am
Member Since: September 9, 2016
Forum Posts: 118
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Gordon, Had not heard of Delcamp. Looks like a wonderful site for guitarists. I see I'm not alone here. The thing is you never know what your getting into online initially. I'll admit I feel more at home here. I guess this is why new sites are started, why old ones die off, and why there's this constant flux going on on many websites. Same general crowd tend to hang around though until something happens. 

xCoach we are likely thinking about the same person.

Andrew, I had no idea when I began to learn violin that there was a certain way to learn the instrument and that the methods differed depending on the type of music played. I reasoned that learning the violin was learning the violin. I'm just now getting into 3rd position on the instrument. One of the main differences I noted about classical is notes are often played higher on the neck. I once thought double stops were only in the fiddle realm. As it turns out double stops are also a large part of some classical music. The notes seem generally more predictable in most fiddle music, especially old time and bluegrass. You can pretty much guess the transitions on a lot of it. Irish/Scottish music sometimes goes beyond  established norms, can be quite technical and also stands out because of the ornaments. Notice I said "sometimes" because a lot of it can be predictable as well. I guess all of it to some degree has some predictability to it and this is generally how we establish what genre it is. Folk music is often played by memory while classical music is seldom played by memory. There seems to be much cross pollination between what we often perceive to be different IMHO.

In the case of v.com, The owner is classically trained, she mainly writes articles about classical musicians.She teaches the Suzuki method. Her advertising support rely heavily on institutional customers and professional classical musicians. Some of the luthiers there make custom instruments on order that an adult part timer would never think about buying based on the prices they charge, so I think it's a kind of ecosystem set up around classical music. Some of the classical crowd unfortunately do look down on anyone who either wasn't trained from a very young age or who aren't learning techniques specifically used in classical music. Lots of parents with kids taking a stringed instrument lessons stumble on the site with questions about what's best. Lots of teachers there who do nothing but teach violin all day. Also  adult semi-pros there.I think this is what drew me to the site. I figured these people had expertise and maybe I could learn something from reading the posts. What I found instead was that like any other public forum, there are usually different answers to the same questions and many questions get asked repeatedly by those dropping by. Up until this recent event, I looked at the forum in a very neutral way. No friendly, not unfriendly, very business, very matter-of-fact. I think adult learners are loosely tolerated there, but certainly not loved. The main crowd is teachers and students of classical music. I didn't like the stodgy feel TBH, but I tolerated THEM.

Andrew the clique you speak of comes from the top down if you are referring to the direction the site takes and the people there.

Avatar
Heinrich
New Hampshire
Advanced member
Members
May 22, 2019 - 8:45 am
Member Since: July 26, 2018
Forum Posts: 58
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Seems to be the same on most places on the internet. The anonymous affect can somehow remove common courtesy and display the worst in people. Just like in life, surround yourself with people that support you and give you encouragement. Criticism is very important but in a helpful and meaningful way. I believe that is a special talent that separates the good teachers from the great ones.

As far as fiddlers vs violinists or folk vs classical, I find that it comes down to the group or the person. I don't think there is a large generalization of either/or, at least in my experience. I am in a local chamber group for the summer and the program is split into folk and classical program. That may be rare but it works wonderfully. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think we should try to polarize the two styles. I have those days when all I want to listen to is Bach, then the next day I'm driving with the windows down listening to the Chieftains.

Enjoy playing and enjoying sharing it with others no mater the style. Avoid negative people and groups.

Avatar
BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
May 22, 2019 - 10:51 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 2963
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Hmmmm... yup @starise - all I can say is nil illegitimi carborundum (as  would be said in grammatically incorrect pidgin Latin for beginners!)

I've encountered this, both in my last few years as a beginner, and indeed, similar kinds of things in both my previous work and academic environments.   You sometimes find people who are very self-assured and (incorrectly) certain that they are always right and have the answer to everything.   Their self belief is only accentuated by the little bubble and echo-chamber they seem to live in with their "n" followers (where "n" being a large number is somehow hugely important)....   

Oh man, I'm on a roll today....

As a player, I for one simply cannot imagine NOT being interested in the mechanics and physical aspects of the violin, and its sound production.   I, as many of us here do, enjoy sharing thoughts and ideas, and, when misunderstandings occur, or we are simply wrong (as I oft-times am), it's never an issue to say "Oh - I stand corrected - thank you!", or "Oh - I never knew that, thanks!".  But to be given "advice" from someone ignorant (that is ignorant in the sense of being unaware of, or simply not interested in, something - not the other derogatory meaning - all of us are ignorant of many things) really is best kept clear of !   

You are well out of it exactly(shame about your entire post history being deleted though)

Oh - and by the way - good work on salvaging the over-reamed peg hole !!!  Ahaaa, nice one !  thumbs-up

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

Avatar
starise
Members

Regulars
May 22, 2019 - 11:59 am
Member Since: September 9, 2016
Forum Posts: 118
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Thanks for those comments BillyG. I do promise to try to be more useful in my next posts. I'm not given to this kind of a thread normally.

I just felt, you know, kinda hurt. I don't make a habit of complaining. I think I just wanted some confirmation that it wasn't all me. I see that I'm not alone about some of my opinions on the things going on. This shouldn't be surprising I guess. These kinds of things stick out rather than hide themselves. They tend to be noticed by more than a few. I suppose the way we each deal with these things is what maybe makes us all a little different. I'm not given commonly to rants and vents, especially online.

I appreciate that you and others here like to learn more about your instruments. I still remember that thread where you were trying heavier strings to get a different kind of sound. You had a lot of data. I'm guessing your background is scientific. You really covered that well.

On the subject of being given advice. I'll take all I can get and be appreciative of it. Well meaning people present things in such a way that you know they're trying to help. I can spot that a mile off.

One thing I've learned is the more I know, the less I know. I had better stop learning or pretty soon I won't know anything. Thanks!!

Avatar
GregW
Members

Regulars
May 22, 2019 - 12:25 pm
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 364
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

starise said
 

...I appreciate that you and others here like to learn more about your instruments. I still remember that thread where you were trying heavier strings to get a different kind of sound. You had a lot of data. I'm guessing your background is scientific....

  

And I remember you sharing Yucca Tree..one I probably would have never heard and also your tune list.  Kinda handy to have around @starise so their loss.  

Avatar
Pete_Violin
Utah
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 22, 2019 - 1:03 pm
Member Since: March 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 308
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

starise said

I just felt, you know, kinda hurt. I don't make a habit of complaining. I think I just wanted some confirmation that it wasn't all me. I see that I'm not alone about some of my opinions on the things going on.  

And if anyone from Violinist.com is reading this.... take note...

- Pete -

Avatar
cid
Members

Regulars
May 22, 2019 - 1:07 pm
Member Since: December 26, 2018
Forum Posts: 968
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
18sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

@starise When I requested to be “booted”, all my old posts were gone too. Probably automatically erased when a name is removed.

I would have been booted. A topic was brought up and I agreed with the person who first said v.com was not friendly. I explained why in hopes of shedding light on the way they, or most respond so they can be more helpful. Let’s just say that they did not agree.

The topic was brought up by someone else in response to some pretty snooty ideal world answers to a question by a student. That comment by that person about it not being friendly got some responses that did not reflect they even understood the issue or why the forum was thought of that way.

Well, me in my can’t keep my mouth shut ways, decided to explain. I was not nasty. I just explained how it appeared to me, examples, etc. That got responses of denial. Nobody appeared to believe it applied to them. Nobody thought that maybe they should give what I explained a little thought. It certainly is not a forum for people who want to learn in a relaxed, enjoyable, non-stressed way. Isn’t that what learning an instrument is about, even if you decide to be professional later?

If a forum wants to deal with classical and experienced violinists only, they need to own up so students and violinists who have a different or multiple genre interests do not waste their time there and can look elsewhere. There is nothing wrong with a forum like that, but own up to it.

Andrew, I think you fit in here just fine!

They call me, “Mellow Cello” 

Avatar
Pete_Violin
Utah
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 22, 2019 - 1:26 pm
Member Since: March 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 308
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

cid said

If a forum wants to deal with classical and experienced violinists only, they need to own up so students and violinists who have a different or multiple genre interests do not waste their time there and can look elsewhere. There is nothing wrong with a forum like that, but own up to it.

Andrew, I think you fit in here just fine!

  

Amen

Fiddlerman.com forum is not exclusive at all to any given genre, nor does it oust anyone for opinions...

By "own up..." this means to either create a private forum if you can only have a specific topic, or create a discussion for this... and allow people to express their opinions.

Otherwise, why create a discussion forum at all....??

- Pete -

Avatar
BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
May 22, 2019 - 4:07 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 2963
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

starise said
Thanks for those comments BillyG. I do promise to try to be more useful in my next posts. I'm not given to this kind of a thread normally.

🙂 trust me on this @starise - your post was useful, and will be appreciated,  recognized for what it was getting at, and understood by many !!!!!  Well said, and politely written, given the circumstances.

One thing I've learned is the more I know, the less I know. I had better stop learning or pretty soon I won't know anything. Thanks!!

ROFL...  precisely !   hahahah, we are all in the same boat  (and it can get a tad disturbing at times.  I mean in the sense of at least being aware of how much we all still have to learn - and not just about fiddle/violin/folk/classical music - I mean everything)

  Again, thanks for the original post - it really does make folks think.......  

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 424
Currently Online: cid
136
Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Killerkhezu, Ferret, HDuaneaz, vibaviattigala, BillyG, rsmith6322, zpilot, Rafael Gonzales, ACDSherlockian, NiloiV, jose6ph, Kody
Top Posters:
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2673
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
DanielB: 2379
Kevin M.: 1969
damfino: 1933
cdennyb: 1814
TerryT: 1726
Ferret: 1575
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 25969
Moderators: 0
Admins: 8
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 58
Topics: 7975
Posts: 99441
Newest Members:
Fedianchuryic, MylottoRife, Coonanchuryic, Leschuryic, kenyachuryic, sevachuryic
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 14597, KindaScratchy: 1737, coolpinkone: 4169, BillyG: 2963, MrsFiddlerman: 1, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, SimplePressHelp: 0, peopleshost: 0