FORUM

Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Bow question. Would appreciate another imput.
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (4 votes) 
Avatar
LucilleLelant
Member
Members
September 16, 2018 - 12:29 am
Member Since: September 15, 2018
Forum Posts: 4
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I don't have the greatest violin, but it was worth around $300 (I got it in a sale for much less). My bow is $50 new. I can't upgrade my violin for a few years, I've been playing 6 months. But looking at bow re-hairs it is not worth rehairing my bow when it's time. I considered getting the Fiddlerman CF bow for Christmas, but honestly I'm going to have the same issue when this needs rehairing. I am thinking about saving and getting something nicer. I've only lost 2 hairs on my bow since I got it. What can I do to make it last as long as possible? I always clean the stick, loosen it after use and I never touch the hair. I recently switched rosin but removed as much of the old one that I could before use. Is there some kind of maintenance I can do to keep it working well until I can save for a better bow?

Avatar
Andrew Shumway
London, England
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
September 16, 2018 - 1:46 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 328
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

I read somewhere that at a certain price point (obviously it won't work for a Strad!), the bow should cost a third of what the violin is worth. Some spend more than that on the bow. If that were true, you could consider spending between $100 and $150. Or you could spend even more if you think you'll get a violin upgrade one day.

I always wanted to be a juvenile delinquent but my parents wouldn't let me.

Avatar
LucilleLelant
Member
Members
September 16, 2018 - 2:32 am
Member Since: September 15, 2018
Forum Posts: 4
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Andrew said
I read somewhere that at a certain price point (obviously it won't work for a Strad!), the bow should cost a third of what the violin is worth. Some spend more than that on the bow. If that were true, you could consider spending between $100 and $150. Or you could spend even more if you think you'll get a violin upgrade one day.  

Thank you, I do plan to upgrade in the future. When I finish college I'll be able to get a better job so I'll be looking at a violin around the $1-2k mark. I like the look of the Coda bows but they are more than my violin outfit was. I'm still looking at bows at the moment. I really want to go to a store though and try them in person before deciding.

Avatar
Andrew Shumway
London, England
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
September 16, 2018 - 3:27 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 328
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

LucilleLelant said

Thank you, I do plan to upgrade in the future. When I finish college I'll be able to get a better job so I'll be looking at a violin around the $1-2k mark. I like the look of the Coda bows but they are more than my violin outfit was. I'm still looking at bows at the moment. I really want to go to a store though and try them in person before deciding.  

I've heard of people spending more on the bow than on the violin, even if temporarily.

I'd do the same. If I knew I was aiming at $2,000, I'd buy something like Coda's best immediately, but it's personal choice.

As it is, I'm aiming at $1,000 and I'm thinking of buying Coda's best to go with it, but I don't know the full story of wooden bows yet.

I always wanted to be a juvenile delinquent but my parents wouldn't let me.

Avatar
BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
September 16, 2018 - 3:34 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 2607
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi @LucilleLelant - @andrew makes a good point regarding the relative costs of the instrument and bow.

But when it comes to starter-instruments and bows, the loss of a couple of hairs especially in the early days of use (you say 6 months) is hardly a cause for concern. 

It is not at all uncommon for a few hairs to come loose at the ferrule end where the strands are effectively "glued together" and clamped in, especially on a new and relatively cheap bow, and I wouldn't concern yourself overmuch about that.   

One of the reasons this can happen is that on cheaper bows the hairs may not be graded to a close tolerance by weight and thickness, and a poorly glued and gripped-by the clamp hair can just work free.  Of course, if it's really bad, too many will come loose, leading to there being less gripping pressure on the rest at the ferrule - and more and more will come free....  🙂  If that happens, then it's probably not worth re-hairing anyway, just dump the bow !

[ I've been discussing hair coming free at the frog-end - the hair is retained in a similar manner at the tip - but generally if the problem is due to poorly glued and clamped ends, then, there is always much more bow pressure and weight during playing at the frog end as compared to the tip, and if the hair is going to slip out, it will most likely be from under the ferrule at the frog.]  

Personally, I would not hesitate considering the FiddlerMan CF bow as a Christmas gift to yourself!    I have 2 and I play a lot, and 3 years on I (at my playing level and awareness of the sound production and general "feel") cannot reasonably yet say "they need a rehair".   Other and better players than I with better awareness may disagree of course.   On one of these bows, I have had probably 3 or at most four hairs break (as distinct from coming free at the frog) - and that was probably down to me being aggressively over-enthusiastic on some fortississimo ( fff+++) playing while attempting some hard-rock on my electric violin facepalm

Even for the FM CF bow, when you DO eventually feel it needs replacing, I guess a professional rehair would cost as much as a new CF bow. 

There is an interesting discussion regarding the need (or-not) to rehair here - http://stringsmagazine.com/how-to-tell-if-you-need-a-rehair/

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

Avatar
Andrew Shumway
London, England
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
November 18, 2018 - 12:32 pm
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 328
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

I got a Col Legno Standard, and I was thinking of getting a pernambuco bow for the same money to compare the two, but my teacher is of the opinion that a CF bow nowadays will always outperform a wooden bow for the same money. I wonder if you all agree with her?

I always wanted to be a juvenile delinquent but my parents wouldn't let me.

Avatar
Irv
Members

Regulars
November 18, 2018 - 12:54 pm
Member Since: December 23, 2017
Forum Posts: 544
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

This is an interesting moment for a side by side experiment.  I noticed that the Fiddlerman Shop is currently running a “Black Friday” sale on their cf and sandalwood bows (also running a sale on their branded synthetic strings).  I already have one of their cf bows, and just placed an order for their more expensive sandalwood bow.  

If wisdom were offered me with the proviso that I should keep it shut up and refrain from declaring it, I should refuse.  There’s no delight in owning anything unshared.  —Seneca

I consider any plane that I design a success if it rises high enough to crash.  —RA Heinlein

Avatar
bocaholly
Boca Raton, Florida
Members

Regulars
November 18, 2018 - 1:08 pm
Member Since: July 8, 2018
Forum Posts: 331
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I was going to say "different strokes for different folks" but figured I'd better look up the origin of that expression first:

Way off track, as metaphors go.

I think your teacher is, for the most part, correct. But in each price category, there are surprises. The <$100 braided Fiddlerman carbon fiber bow 'punches above its weight' already so you wouldn't expect to find an equally respectable and similarly priced wooden bow. However, surprise, they recently started importing a yellow snakewood (EDIT: sandalwood) bow that seems to do just that. (This is the one @Irv just mentioned.) I'm guessing that which one to prefer also depends on the subjective feel of the player and the match between bow and violin.

I've watched my teacher test bows... several of the same brand and price level ($400) She found them all respectable but one in the lot she found to be an outlier which played like a much more expensive bow. I would expect CF bows of the same model to be more homogeneous in feel.

Avatar
Irv
Members

Regulars
November 18, 2018 - 1:35 pm
Member Since: December 23, 2017
Forum Posts: 544
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I can see myself putting rosin on two dozen bows to find the outlier.  Perhaps if I put the rosin for a minute in the microwave first, it would be quicker?

If wisdom were offered me with the proviso that I should keep it shut up and refrain from declaring it, I should refuse.  There’s no delight in owning anything unshared.  —Seneca

I consider any plane that I design a success if it rises high enough to crash.  —RA Heinlein

Avatar
bocaholly
Boca Raton, Florida
Members

Regulars
November 18, 2018 - 1:37 pm
Member Since: July 8, 2018
Forum Posts: 331
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Fiddlershop pre-rosined them 🙂

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 19, 2018 - 1:35 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 13720
11sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Andrew Fryer said
I got a Col Legno Standard, and I was thinking of getting a pernambuco bow for the same money to compare the two, but my teacher is of the opinion that a CF bow nowadays will always outperform a wooden bow for the same money. I wonder if you all agree with her?  

Up to a certain cost, I would probably agree with your teacher. But we should get your teacher to try a Holstein bow. They outperform most CF bow IMAO.

Our prices are not normal for Pernambuco bows though because we get them straight from the makers rather than through distributors. If we were getting these from a distributor we would be paying the markup plus in many cases, a MAP price.

We do bows on in-home trials as well as violins. 🙂

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
AndrewH
Sacramento, California
Members

Regulars
November 20, 2018 - 10:03 pm
Member Since: November 5, 2017
Forum Posts: 283
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I'm not sure the "1/3 of the price of the instrument" standard holds up as well today with carbon fiber bows punching above their weight. I think it applies quite well to wood bows. Up to a certain point, carbon fiber bows may be comparable in quality to wood bows at a much higher price level, and that's true all the way up to near professional level. Back in 2010, I went shopping for a bow with a $2,000 budget (and considered spending up to $2,500), and ended up buying a $520 hybrid bow that I found superior to all the more expensive wood bows I tried.

As far as I can tell, carbon fiber bows seem to hit a ceiling around $800-900, which is comparable to wood bows in the $2,500-3,000 range. If you're looking for a better bow than that, wood seems to be the only option. But if you're not looking for a high-end professional bow, carbon fiber is indeed more cost-effective at all price levels.

Also note: I've been a proponent of hybrid bows for a while. They have the strength and springiness of carbon fiber, and even a thin layer of wood adds back most of the resonance that wood bows seem to have.

Avatar
Andrew Shumway
London, England
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
November 21, 2018 - 5:12 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 328
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

AndrewH said
I'm not sure the "1/3 of the price of the instrument" standard holds up as well today with carbon fiber bows punching above their weight. I think it applies quite well to wood bows. Up to a certain point, carbon fiber bows may be comparable in quality to wood bows at a much higher price level, and that's true all the way up to near professional level. Back in 2010, I went shopping for a bow with a $2,000 budget (and considered spending up to $2,500), and ended up buying a $520 hybrid bow that I found superior to all the more expensive wood bows I tried.

As far as I can tell, carbon fiber bows seem to hit a ceiling around $800-900, which is comparable to wood bows in the $2,500-3,000 range. If you're looking for a better bow than that, wood seems to be the only option. But if you're not looking for a high-end professional bow, carbon fiber is indeed more cost-effective at all price levels.

Also note: I've been a proponent of hybrid bows for a while. They have the strength and springiness of carbon fiber, and even a thin layer of wood adds back most of the resonance that wood bows seem to have.  

Every point you make sounds very wise.

My current view is that my absolute ceiling is the Codabow GX with a $2,000 violin - entry level in what fiddlershop describes as the professional class.

What you say about hybrids is interesting - I've been suspicious of them. I fear that the laminates might start coming away from the core with all the flexing.

Fiddlerman said

Up to a certain cost, I would probably agree with your teacher. But we should get your teacher to try a Holstein bow.

You have two - the non-woven and the woven. What's the difference?

I had the idea of waiting until I need a rehair and then delaying it by buying one or two of your bows instead.

But I'm planning to buy my pro violin in April 2020 (it would be my 60th birthday present to myself, lol!), and I may not even need a rehair before then. But our two economies may stymie that plan.

I always wanted to be a juvenile delinquent but my parents wouldn't let me.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 21, 2018 - 8:26 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 13720
14sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

In my opinion, the non-woven vs woven is more of a cosmetic difference. I feel that they play the same. 🙂

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
AndrewH
Sacramento, California
Members

Regulars
November 21, 2018 - 5:04 pm
Member Since: November 5, 2017
Forum Posts: 283
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Andrew Fryer said

AndrewH said
I'm not sure the "1/3 of the price of the instrument" standard holds up as well today with carbon fiber bows punching above their weight. I think it applies quite well to wood bows. Up to a certain point, carbon fiber bows may be comparable in quality to wood bows at a much higher price level, and that's true all the way up to near professional level. Back in 2010, I went shopping for a bow with a $2,000 budget (and considered spending up to $2,500), and ended up buying a $520 hybrid bow that I found superior to all the more expensive wood bows I tried.

As far as I can tell, carbon fiber bows seem to hit a ceiling around $800-900, which is comparable to wood bows in the $2,500-3,000 range. If you're looking for a better bow than that, wood seems to be the only option. But if you're not looking for a high-end professional bow, carbon fiber is indeed more cost-effective at all price levels.

Also note: I've been a proponent of hybrid bows for a while. They have the strength and springiness of carbon fiber, and even a thin layer of wood adds back most of the resonance that wood bows seem to have.  

Every point you make sounds very wise.

My current view is that my absolute ceiling is the Codabow GX with a $2,000 violin - entry level in what fiddlershop describes as the professional class.

What you say about hybrids is interesting - I've been suspicious of them. I fear that the laminates might start coming away from the core with all the flexing.  

 

I've used my hybrid bow extensively. I practice almost daily, play in two orchestras on a regular basis, and sometimes take on additional performance opportunities. And as a violist, I need to dig into the string more than any violinist, so there is probably more flexing. No problems yet. I was probably taking a bit of a risk when I bought it, because it was fairly new technology at the time.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 23, 2018 - 9:05 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 13720
16sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

I agree with you Andrew about 1/3 price thing. I paid 30,000 for my violin and I had colleagues that paid half a million for their instruments and I can't imagine finding a bow for 10,000 dollars, not to mention hundreds of thousands. 🙂

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Andrew Shumway
London, England
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
November 23, 2018 - 9:11 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 328
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

Fiddlerman said
I agree with you Andrew about 1/3 price thing. I paid 30,000 for my violin and I had colleagues that paid half a million for their instruments and I can't imagine finding a bow for 10,000 dollars, not to mention hundreds of thousands. 🙂  

"Available!"

I always wanted to be a juvenile delinquent but my parents wouldn't let me.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 23, 2018 - 9:15 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 13720
18sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I could easily ask $100,000 for our best bench made bow. The problem is that we won't be able to justify it. LOL

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
CyndieZ
Maryland
Advanced member
Members
November 23, 2018 - 2:03 pm
Member Since: December 21, 2016
Forum Posts: 75
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I've been itching to experiment with some different bows lately. Just ordered the Holstein Yellow Sandalwood - taking advantage of the Black Friday Sale! (Thanks Pierre!) Can't wait to get it and try it out!

Cyndie

santa3

Avatar
AndrewH
Sacramento, California
Members

Regulars
November 23, 2018 - 3:14 pm
Member Since: November 5, 2017
Forum Posts: 283
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Fiddlerman said
I agree with you Andrew about 1/3 price thing. I paid 30,000 for my violin and I had colleagues that paid half a million for their instruments and I can't imagine finding a bow for 10,000 dollars, not to mention hundreds of thousands. 🙂  

 

I'm probably an extreme case, though... $15,000 viola, $520 bow (albeit one punching far above it's weight with a carbon fiber core)...

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 231

Currently Online: Andrew Shumway, Bob
52 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Reacher, Andrew, Prudence, Lajer, Lenicus, wookieman, Gil, Diana Ungaro Arnos, Longstride46, marta, bocaholly

Top Posters:

Mad_Wed: 2849

.: 2671

Fiddlestix: 2647

Oliver: 2439

DanielB: 2379

Kevin M.: 1969

damfino: 1831

cdennyb: 1814

TerryT: 1726

Ferret: 1575

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 2

Members: 17322

Moderators: 0

Admins: 6

Forum Stats:

Groups: 16

Forums: 58

Topics: 7390

Posts: 92366

Newest Members:

kimav69, tyronecc3, Goktilaraderfory, perrywz2, tamikawv1, inesob3

Administrators: Fiddlerman: 13720, KindaScratchy: 1728, coolpinkone: 4141, BillyG: 2607, MrsFiddlerman: 0, Jimmie Bjorling: 0