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Bow hair cleaning
Topic Rating: 4.7 Topic Rating: 4.7 Topic Rating: 4.7 Topic Rating: 4.7 Topic Rating: 4.7 Topic Rating: 4.7 (7 votes) 
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DanielB
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They used to make line for fishing out of horse tail hair, back in the days before nylon and etc had been invented.  My wife keeps any hair from my bows because it apparently has some specific uses in mending and uhh.. textile stuff.  She's the one in our family that knows cloth, thread, yarn and fibers and etc, not me.  When I cut off all the hair from one of my "free" Chinese bows she was delighted to get a whole hank at almost full length.  I rarely lose bow hairs so far.  I've only lost maybe six from my "good" bow in the three months or so that I have played it, and half of those were when I was working on the "Bile them cabbages" piece, due to them getting snagged on something when I set the bow down.

Like I said, she's the person that knows fibers in the household.  According to her most natural animal fibers like hair (wool for example) and silk are best washed in something mildly acidic or at least not basic/alkaline.  Most soaps are at least a bit alkaline because they are usually made with lye or equivalent to turn grease into soap.  A mild acid rinse afterwards could restore the hair to the proper mildly acidic pH. 

But that is before it is put on a bow, and none of that would help with getting the rosin out of the hair. 

Alcohol is the better choice because it does have a neutral pH.  Ideal for the hair would be if it was mildly acidic, but alcohol would be kinder to it than soap, which is usually basic/alkaline pH.  The 70% concentration you suggest also has enough water in it that it probably won't dry the hair out as much as a higher proof might. 

However, taking your alcohol method plus the "best if kept slightly acidic" idea does suggest something that might be worth a try.  Lemon juice will naturally lighten the color of hair a little, and it is acidic. but would be too strong to use undiluted.   I could calculate what amounts more precisely, but the juice squeezed from half a lemon mixed with a glass of water would probably be close enough.  Use that to dampen a bit of cloth and wipe down the bow hairs after cleaning the rosin off them with alcohol and it theoretically would make sure the hair is at something like the optimal pH, it would remove any soap traces that might be left from the commercial process of preparing the hair, and it might even make it a tiny bit whiter/prettier over time.  I wouldn't actually soak the hair in it because too much moisture might manage to get into the frog or head joint of the wood, but wiping it with a dampened cloth should be ok I would think?

What to do with the rest of the glass?  I dunno, maybe stir in a spoon of sugar and call it lemonade?  LOL

Also, I don't know about bow mites specifically, but lemon is supposed to be a mild insect repellent. 

Just an idea and it is untested, but it might be worth considering trying adding it to your alcohol method if anyone is feeling adventurous.

I wouldn't use the corn starch trick on bow hair because it could cause the same problem as the fine rosin dust we are trying to get rid of with cleaning the hair in the first place. 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Kevin M.
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As for the strength of the horse's tail hair. The tail and mane are the same hair.  When grooming a horse you in most cases don't cut the mane you pull it. This is taking a metal comb and breaking the hairs.  I have been cut by the hairs because they are so strong. When combing out a tail you can easily be cut by the hair. It is as strong as wire. It is even used in making jewelry instead of wire.

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dionysia
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DanielB said
They used to make line for fishing out of horse tail hair, back in the days before nylon and etc had been invented. 

Funny you should say that. My old bow from my Grandpa is strung with fine nylon fishing line. When I first got the fiddle, the bow "hair' was all sticky and gunky. I undid the frog, curled the "hair" in a shallow bowl and soaked in alcohol for about 20-30 minutes. I rosined up the bow and have been playing with it ever since. My best recollection is that the bow was haired with the fish line about 30 years ago. Works fine for me! Nothin' quite like "hillbilly home repair" - or home re-hair as the case may be. 

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Fiddlestix
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DanielB said
I wouldn't use the corn starch trick on bow hair because it could cause the same problem as the fine rosin dust we are trying to get rid of with cleaning the hair in the first place. 

 

 

I don't think I suggested using corn starch on the bow hair, It was just something to babble about, you know the feeling.  rofl

Perhap's i'll go try the lemon wash now to see what happens. Maybe the thing will sound like a Strad.  I don't have any lemon's so i'll use extract, that should work the same, maybe  ?

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DanielB
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Lemon extract is usually lemon oil in alcohol, unless you mean the bottled lemon juice they make from concentrate.  The acidity of the bottled (or in a little plastic lemon) stuff should be about the same as fresh lemon juice, I think.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Fiddlestix
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Task complete, alcohol bath on my Pernambuco bow, (it needed cleaning), lemon wash.I really don't notice any change in sound, except after the lemon rinse, I seem to get a lot of sour note's.   roflroflolrofl.  Maybe the lemon conditioned the hair's.

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Oliver
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I think I'm allowed a nubee question at this point.

Why is there so much discussion about cleaning bow hair ?  Is it strictly for appearance ( i.e. black thingies by frog )  Does something happen to sound quality with a "dirty" bow ? 

I have not cleaned the bow hair in at least 3 or 4 years ( 10 or so bows in collection ).

(Except for the masking tape technique. (brown tape, not blue)

Maybe my clean bow hair shows that my technique is all wrong.  Yeah, that just might be the cause of my bad playing. 

This is why I should have taken lessons.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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DanielB
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Well, you could put some sugar or honey on them and see if that "sweetens the sound up a bit", but I kind of doubt it.  Or maybe one of those Popsicles!

rofl

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Oliver
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Why should I look to fix that which is not broken ?

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Oliver
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Fill out the blank....

My playing was suffering from ________________.  I decided the cause was a dirty bow.  After cleaning the bow the problem went away. 

birthday_balloon

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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DanielB
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@Oliver:  I don't really know either.  I'm still way too much of a noob to know about long-term care.  With the lack of troubles I've seen from rosin and the fact that bow hairs break occasionally, I would guess that I may need the bow rehaired before it might actually *need* a cleaning like we are talking about here.  And considering my "good" bow is a 20$ student model, I'd probably count more on replacing the bow and then trying rehairing it as a project.

I can see situations where cleaning might be necessary.  If something bad happened to a bow you like and something got on the hair, it might be better to try cleaning it than just assuming it had to be rehaired.  Or I have heard (but never seen myself yet, 'cause I'm a noob) that over time the rosin can somehow solidify or something and make the bow hairs more of a solid smooth band than a band made up a parellel hairs, so it might not hold rosin and make a tone right anymore.

So I don't know for a fact, but considering some more experienced folks seem to consider it important, I figure eventually it is.  I can understand the idea as a process, though, and that is what I am going on with my thoughts in this thread, rather than actual experience.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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DanielB
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Oliver said
Why should I look to fix that which is not broken ?

For my money, Oliver, if it sounds good and plays good, don't change a thing.  When one looks for a fix is when the tone isn't as good as one feels it should be or there is some other similarly obvious problem.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Fiddlestix
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Yep, Daniel.... it's lemon juice, not extract. Some fiddler's, such as Pierre never clean their bow hair's, they just have it rehaired. I think FM said he has his rehaired about every 3 or 4 month's (if i'm not mistaken).  I think the hair's only touch on one side anyway, you would think you could turn them over and have a fresh side, but Pierre say's that won't work.  Is the quality of the sound transmitted through the hair or the stick, I think  combination of both, right ? If this is true, what make's a $3,000.00 bow worth $3,000.00. Got the be the quality of the stick, no way horse hair is that expensive. Probably buy the whole horse cheaper. You can buy a hank of hair for about $10.00 - $20.00. A Luthier rehaired my Pernambuco bow for $45.00 a few month's back. I would say that a clean bow sound's better just like a clean car drives better.

 

I should appologize for starting this thread, it's gotten outta hand,,,,, I think / maybe ???

 

             

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DanielB
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@Fiddlestix: I don't know, this sort of thread is exactly what I like to find when visiting a forum.  It addresses a necessary bit of gear, has a lot of information and some new thoughts mixed in with thoughts from experienced folks and discussion of what might or might not be a good idea and why.  It has wandered into a little humor now and then, but that isn't bad at all.  I would say it has developed into a thread that is well worth reading if someone has an interest in the topic stated in it's title.

If this was just a social forum with no particular focus, it would probably fall under "But who cares??" for a lot of people.  But violinists need bows in good condition, and this relates to that, and it is in the proper section of the forum for such discussions. 

On the topic of $3,000 bows, I still don't understand what could possibly make a bow worth that much.  Figuring a bow as weighing about 60 grams, that would make it worth about $50 a gram, which would make it pretty close to literally "worth it's weight in gold" if I read the current gold prices right?  I may be a noob, but let's say that I doubt the idea of any bow actually being worth that much.  LOL

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Oliver
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Has anyone noticed that the $3000 + bow claim to fame has been more or less inversely proportional to student level violins sold under USA control ?

(I won't say why.)

Stranger to tourist on NYC subway.  "How would you like to buy some smart pills. Guaranteed for only $5".

Gee, OK.

"Here's a hand full."

"They look like rabbit droppings."

"See, you're getting smart already!"

 

Incidentally, my bow will "cake" eventually and sound like hell then I use the popsicle stick in the fashion of an ice scraper.

If I were to take my playing seriously my only option would be to give it up.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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DanielB
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Oliver said
Has anyone noticed that the $3000 + bow claim to fame has been more or less inversely proportional to student level violins manufactured under USA control ?

(I won't say why.)

Incidentally, my bow will "cake" eventually and sound like hell then I use the popsicle stick in the fashion of an ice scraper.

If I were to take my playing seriously my only option would be to give it up.

 

You don't fool anybody here, Oliver.  We've heard, and we know you play well.  Never as well as you personally want it, maybe, but that is only because you are a perfectionist. 

I think a lot of the high prices seen for some violins is partially due to the market always being a mix of both new and antique instruments.  Sometimes they have both player value and investment/collector's value.

And, well, to put it plainly.. I think that violin is an instrument more prone to "snob appeal" in the market than any except perhaps pianos.  The cut-off point below which most people would say "Cheap can't be good" is much higher than most other instruments, even the ones made of comparable materials.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Oliver
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(How well I play is yet to be heard.  I will do a mini-recital over labor day at church and I'm staring at the (impossible) music right now. 

So, I am a little more ballistic than usual about everything including bows. 

I guess everything seeks a level eventually.  I never argue with success.

My labor day hope is that most of the congregation will be away on vacation for the holiday.)

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Fiddlestix
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KindaScratchy said
You mean you're not supposed to use shampoo?

 

roflol

I have been cleaning my bow hairs in the alcohol bath. The other day I cleaned it as usual then I tried another method after cleaning with the alcohol.

I used Pantene shampoo in a bowl with hot water, after the shampoo, I rinsed the hair's in hot water, dryed them and rerosined, after I did the alcohol bath. What a difference in the hair's. It play's smoother and softer now, I don't have the rosin cakeing up on the string's like before.

The shampoo worked wonder's for the bow hair's.   dancing I guess it conditioned the hair.

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Kevin M.
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What is funny about using pantine on a horse hair bow is that I use mane and tail shampoo on my hair.

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DanielB
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Wow.  Talk about experimenting to find a good trick!

Kudos, Fiddlestix!

1st-place

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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