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Winter Holiday Project for 2020
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Fiddlerman
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November 3, 2020 - 12:27 pm
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Jim Dunleavy said
@fiddlerman Just a slight problem with the all instruments click track - the clicks stop a few bars before the end (though the instruments go on) making it difficult to place the last 2 note properly. I haven't listened to the other click tracks.

It's a bit livelier than I've been practicing it, but I'm sure it'll be fine! beg  

I'll fix that. It's probably the same on all of them. I moved the drum track forward for the countdown. 

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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caseclosed
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November 3, 2020 - 5:35 pm
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Thanks for all your work again, @Fiddlerman! Another great project! Just confirming that we should prepare our parts using straight eighth notes (as heard in the drum tracks) instead of swing eighth notes (as written on the individual parts). Thanks!

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Roy
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Looks like a good project.

In addition to clarification on straight eighth notes instead of swing eighths, I think we also need clarification on measure 16 of the sheet music for parts 1 and 2 of violin and viola.   

The second beat of measure 16 is a quarter note.  

However, it sounds like the click track is playing 2 eighth notes.

Have I misunderstood the click track?  If not, how should we play this?  If 2 eighth notes instead of one quarter note, what are the notes?  Does the second eighth repeat the first or is it an interval lower?

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Jim Dunleavy
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Fiddlerman said

Jim Dunleavy said

@fiddlerman Just a slight problem with the all instruments click track - the clicks stop a few bars before the end (though the instruments go on) making it difficult to place the last 2 note properly. I haven't listened to the other click tracks.

It's a bit livelier than I've been practicing it, but I'm sure it'll be fine! beg  

I'll fix that. It's probably the same on all of them. I moved the drum track forward for the countdown. 

  

Thanks! I've got the corrected one now. 

A couple of people have asked about the swung 1/8th notes - I'm going to assume all 1/8 notes are swung unless you say otherwise.

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ELCBK
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November 6, 2020 - 6:15 pm
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@Fiddlerman -

After viewing some questions/remarks brought up in this thread, now I'm wondering...

Geez, aren't we supposed to sound like the click track? 

I'm not getting that swing feel from the click track - is it just me?

I remember questioning myself (after the fact) for the Game Of Thrones Project, but at least I think I understood the rhythm of it.  ...followed the click track for GOT and used the extra bow strokes I thought I heard in a spot, instead of some slurring that would've sounded better.  Realized I screwed up - noticed on the finished project my suspicions confirmed, there was a place everyone else slurred the notes! 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/9d/31/769d315ba7bb16991fee2d13801d11ba.jpg

 

- Emily 

 

Fiddlerman - are you going to give us a video that shows how you want it played? 

Maybe I'm just the only one missing something, here?

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
November 7, 2020 - 3:24 am
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I understand what folks are getting at regarding the swung notes and references to the click track timings for them - although I "see it" differently.    What I read into it is that the two 1/8ths duplet (making a 1/4 note time overall) should be played as a 1/4 note triplet consisting of two notes.  The overall time of the triplet MUST be a 1/4 note and the triplet is then effectively 3 "beats" making up the time of 1/4 note.  The first note of the triplet (drawn as a 1/4 note) consists of 2 of these beats and the final note of the triplet (drawn as an 1/8th note) makes up the third of these beats.

So - within the timing of the triplet "each of the three beats making up the triplet" is 1/12th note long  ( 3/12 notes for the entire triplet = 1/4 note, as intended ) - so the first swung note (shown as a 1/4 in the triplet) is to be played as a 2/12 (or 1/6) note in duration, and the second (final) note (shown as a 1/8th)  in the triplet is to be played as a 1/12 beat.

This surely makes it "difficult" to notate (beats normally being powers of 2 in time - 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc etc ) and "defeats" the basic integral timing of the software creating the click track.  I accept, yes, of course, there are ways this could be done - but equally - it's my feeling that it's just a case of using the click as a guide - and you know (because of the instruction) to swing the note pair

I interpret such an "instruction" as being not much different (well, yes it is a different thing of course, but in some ways similar - let's call it that - an "instruction") from other "instructions" in a score - such as introducing dim or cresc, or rit etc - your individual "dim", "cresc" or "rit" may well be (in fact generally WILL BE) different in absolute timing from others - it's just a "general indication" - i.e. how rapidly, or slowly you incorporate the diminuendo/crescendo over "x" bars and precisely how you perform the "rit" - these are indeed different from other players' interpretations - and even different solo/individual performances by the same player  can easily differ "in the moment of playing" between performances.  Just "swing" the duplet/"instructed swung triplet" note pair as best you can !

Not necessarily the "correct interpretation",  just my way of seeing it....

trip.JPG

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Gordon Shumway
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November 7, 2020 - 5:46 am
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Yes, the concept of everyone swinging (and syncopating) together in the same way has interesting difficulties. Don't underestimate the jazz big band!

It can be, and has been, written out explicitly for classical musicians, but they still often can't feel what they are doing. Too much time counting!

Andrew

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BillyG
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November 7, 2020 - 6:39 am
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Yup @Gordon Shumway - expressed in a much more concise manner than I - but equally getting to the point !

 Don't underestimate the jazz big band!

LOL - that sums up what I was struggling to say ! Thanks !

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Grandpafiddle
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November 7, 2020 - 10:14 am
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Whew!

I'm just going to play a regular style "Let It Snow" on my fiddle and send it to Pierre.

He'll put it all together and make it sound great!

grandpaviolin

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BillyG
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November 7, 2020 - 10:38 am
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grandpafiddle said
Whew!

I'm just going to play a regular style "Let It Snow" on my fiddle and send it to Pierre.

He'll put it all together and make it sound great!

grandpaviolin  

hats_offindeed @Grandpafiddle - well said - that is actually ALL that is needed.    What is often forgotten is, in a project like this, is that we, the players, are simply NOT SOLOING - we are a massed-band-of-players - listen to any large orchestral piece - it is indeed the many, many, small, but subtle differences in timing say in a violin section that gives it the final overall sound which we, as listeners, hear.  The difference (for one, single, individual (even many) player/s) playing the triplet as a dotted 1/8th ( 3/16ths) followed by a 1/16th = 4/16th = the expected 1/4 note of course - for what we are doing - really will make no difference whatsoever to the overall mix where there are possibly in excess of 100 mixed-down audio tracks ( well, ok, some minor difference - but - truly - this is splitting hairs - because quite simply - no two players will ever have the same exact timing - it is as simple as that. It will all come out fine in the final mix down, it always does)

He'll put it all together and make it sound great!

Precisely, and well said @Grandpafiddle 

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ELCBK
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November 7, 2020 - 2:45 pm
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Sorry, Guys -

What I'm hearing in the click track is the rhythm sounds off. 

Not hearing "dat, te, toom... dat, te, toom... dat, te, toom..." from the drum beat.  

This is a basic rhythm issue - nothing to do with solos.

So, we're just not playing the original classic 1945 tune? 

I just want to be sure.  

 

giphy.gif

 

- Emily

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BillyG
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November 7, 2020 - 3:59 pm
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LOL @ELCBK  - but yes - if you are referring to the intended "swing" (which, to me, is just a notification/indication to the player while following the SCORE ) - it (the click track) "will" indeed sound "off".   Pretty much as I described earlier - no disagreement about that.  It HAS to be "off" in this simplified scenario I believe.  That's precisely what I was getting at - but - I see nothing "wrong with that" - it IS the way it IS..  we just need to be aware of what the arranger WANTS (by the indication of the swing)

The triplet indication at the top of the score is for the human player to interpret appropriately - the click we hear is an automated, synthed, drum-beat-mix based on 4/4 and not 12/12 (which would be needed for the click/drum to be timed correctly - but ONLY for the paired-eighth-notes played as a quarter-note-triplet) - it is a "guide" in this case, and is not a "do precisely what I do when you see the intended triplets in the score" - rather "remember what was indicated about the "twin-eighth's" when you hit them and "play to fit" the apparent 3-beats in the one-quarter-note-triplet into ONE quarter note....  hmmm - the significant point being, these 1/8th pairs are, as indicated, really a 1/4 note triplet timing....   and, sorry ELCB - here and now - I just cannot see past my understanding of this (but as ever, quite naturally stand to be corrected/enlightened) - sure - I agree - it doesn't "sound right" - but it is just a click, an "indicator", nothing more - just as any score is.....  Just the way I see it !

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Roy
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November 7, 2020 - 4:34 pm
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There is another issue that needs some resolution in addition to the swing question ...

In the second beat of measure 16 the sheet music for parts 1 and 2 of violin and viola shows a quarter note.

It sounds like the click track is playing 2 eighth notes, which sounds correct musically.

So how should we play this?  If 2 eighth notes instead of one quarter note, what are the notes?  Does the second eighth repeat the first or is it an interval lower?

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ELCBK
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November 7, 2020 - 5:34 pm
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@BillyG -

I really appreciate you trying to explain this to me.   

Confused Head Scratching Emoticons

Pretty sure I understood what's written - just don't know how I can have the click track in my ear to play it. 

I'm going to have to look at this later, with fresher eyes + a better attitude - right now I'm shaking my head.

Thanx, Billy. 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Snowflake_macro_photography_1_%28cropped%29.jpg/280px-Snowflake_macro_photography_1_%28cropped%29.jpg 

 

- Emily

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SharonC
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November 7, 2020 - 10:06 pm
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Roy said

In the second beat of measure 16 the sheet music for parts 1 and 2 of violin and viola shows a quarter note.

It sounds like the click track is playing 2 eighth notes, which sounds correct musically.

Roy,

I went back to the click track to hear what you're hearing.  I think it is the drum you're hearing.  If you listen to the single click tracks for part 1 or 2 alone at this part (around :38), you can hear the drum playing the 2nd beat as two eighth notes.  Since everyone (almost everyone, parts 5&6 playing longer notes) is playing a quarter note here, I think it just sounds broken up by the rhythm track.

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caseclosed
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November 7, 2020 - 11:00 pm
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Good conversation on the 8th note quandary. It seems the first thing we'll need to clear up is whether the drum track is in fact correct as is (straight 8ths), or if it needs to be adjusted to swing 8ths to match the marking on the sheet music. This is probably a decision for @Fiddlerman because Pierre created everything, then we can follow his lead. Otherwise, many people (especially those who learn better aurally) could hear the drum track and record their parts using straight 8ths, while other people record their parts using swing 8ths. Yes, Pierre is good at sprucing up what we do, but shifting everyone to one style after the fact is a lot of extra work. If he's able to clarify which style we're to play in, and if the drum track and style marking on the music match that style, then those who chose to record parts will have a consistent picture of how to proceed. Having an accurate aural model would reinforce how things should actually sound (timing, feel, note placement, etc.). You're right that we won't be 100% together on swing 8ths, but knowing up front which style is correct will get us there faster. As Emily suggested earlier, having to play swing 8ths to a straight 8ths drum track would be difficult due to the contradictory grooves. Any demonstration videos that Pierre releases in the coming weeks could also reinforce the style he prefers.           

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BillyG
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November 8, 2020 - 5:36 am
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ELCB said
Sorry, Guys -

What I'm hearing in the click track is the rhythm sounds off. 

Not hearing "dat, te, toom... dat, te, toom... dat, te, toom..." from the drum beat.  

This is a basic rhythm issue - nothing to do with solos.

So, we're just not playing the original classic 1945 tune? 

- Emily

LOL Emily - @ELCBK - aye, my apologies to you !  I misinterpreted what you were getting at and just "homed in" on the part of the discussion relating specifically to the "triplet-ised" swung 1/8ths and how they would be interpreted (by myself, anyway!)

trip-1.JPG

It struck me later that you were perhaps referring to the rhythm throughout the entire piece - it being different from "the original classic 1945 tune? "   

Ahhh, so... on that aspect I have nothing material to add - what we have is a specific arrangement I guess.   Sorry for the potential confusion !

And yes - good points @caseclosed - thank you !

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Jim Dunleavy
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I think we're getting too hung up on the minute details of the click track. To me, it's only there to keep everybody in time and in tune and is a guide only.

We just need to play what's written in the parts.

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Fiddlerman
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November 8, 2020 - 10:49 am
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caseclosed said
Thanks for all your work again, @Fiddlerman! Another great project! Just confirming that we should prepare our parts using straight eighth notes (as heard in the drum tracks) instead of swing eighth notes (as written on the individual parts). Thanks!

No @caseclosed, the click track was created using Finale's midi file. I wrote the eighth notes straight to simplify writing it and am going to make a video about swinging eighth notes.

I guess I'll have to figure out how to get a midi program to swing eighth notes. :(

When you see two eighth notes play them like 3 triplets in which the first of the eighth notes gets two beats and the second gets one. I suppose you've all heard "Let it Snow" and know how it's usually performed.

The sheet music is correct in that I wrote to swing the eighth notes. I was hoping that this would not confuse people but now I see that it does. Personally I don't get thrown off by the straight eighths on the track and didn't realize that others would. I apologize for that.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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John Bracone
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@Fiddlerman 

 

Okay, now I'm confused. I have been practicing along with the backing tracks and playing exactly like the backing tracks.

 

Is this incorrect?

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