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(18 votes) 
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Since nobody wants to answer#1 properly, here goes for the self-learner:
Materials
1. Study musical notation: "Music Notation: A Manual of Modern Practice", Gardner Read.
2. Study music theory, ear training, and Rhythm: "Revisiting Music Theory", Alfred Blatter
"Rutgers University Music Dictation Series: A Course in Basic Musicianship, Ear Training and Sight Reading, 7 compact discs"
"Progressive Sight Singing", Carol Krueger
3. Reference Manual for violin (How to book): "The Violin Lesson", Simon Fischer
4. Workbook for violin (main exercise book): "Superior Bowing Technique", Lucien Capet
5. Electronic Tuner (to find the notes initially): Korg Chromatic tuner
It will take about 5000 hours to get through #3 and #4. Since 2hrs/day is always the minimum standard of practice, do the math:
5000hrs / 2hrs/day = 2500 days
2500 days / 365 days/yr = 6.8 years, rounded to 7 years
It takes about 7 years for an adult self learner to play the violin well enough to play in a community orchestra. Now, my contribution is rock solid. Pierres, is a bunch of hand waving.
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"Now, my contribution is rock solid. Pierres, is a bunch of hand waving."
With all due respect. Umm.. Not!
Pierre, we know something of his background and experience.
You, on the other hand, Composer.. We don't know what education or experience you have that would make you a qualified authority on what is necessary to get a position in a community orchestra/ensemble. Or other than that you picked the nick "Composer" for this forum, that you are in any way qualified to recommend books or gear for beginners. Not to say that what you listed are bad choices, but to assume you are offering more than an unqualified opinion would take a bit more to establish as "rock solid".
Pierre, on the other hand, his background looks to have enough experience and education that he certainly is (at the very least) a qualified opinion on what it might take to get into a local orchestra.
I myself didn't attempt to answer question #1, since I haven't ever played in an orchestra and as such don't consider myself qualified to offer an opinion on that point. I definitely haven't ever been a person who judged auditions for positions in local orchestra. Have you?
So, no offense intended, but for those reasons I;'d still listen to what Pierre has to say on the topic rather than taking your advice. Particularly considering that said advice was a list of books and a rather arbitrary demonstration of the ability to use a calculator to do simple math. LOL
Need to up your game a bit, if you're out to convince people you know more about question #1 than Pierre does.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
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"Pierre, on the other hand, his background looks to have enough experience and education that he certainly is (at the very least) a qualified opinion on what it might take to get into a local orchestra."
Seconded.
So far I have only come across (or remember ?) one forum where all the members seem to use only their own real-life names. I am not sure why only the one ? - I mean what is different about that forum ? Maybe there are other groups that don´t have any members cloaked in anonymity, but I am only in one group where I think everyone can see the actual names of all the other members and communicates with them on that basis.
A problem with internet forums that involve people writing under aliases is you cannot always tell whether to address another identity as he or she, nor can you always be sure that two distinct aliases are two distinct people or not.
Anonymous advice may or may not be good advice, but as it is anonymous advice readers are in the dark about the author´s qualifications or expertise, and hence the readers have no way of determining whether the advice is likely to be good advice or bad advice.
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Composer said
Since nobody wants to answer#1 properly, here goes for the self-learner:Materials
1. Study musical notation: "Music Notation: A Manual of Modern Practice", Gardner Read.
Not necessary if you have a brain and access to wikipedia.
2. Study music theory, ear training, and Rhythm: "Revisiting Music Theory", Alfred Blatter
Same as above
"Rutgers University Music Dictation Series: A Course in Basic Musicianship, Ear Training and Sight Reading, 7 compact discs"
Probably helpful but not necessary
"Progressive Sight Singing", Carol Krueger
same answer
3. Reference Manual for violin (How to book): "The Violin Lesson", Simon Fischer
I love Fischers books but you dont mention his "Scales" which is supposed to contain everything you need to learn to play his way.
4. Workbook for violin (main exercise book): "Superior Bowing Technique", Lucien Capet
Fiddlerman videos are just as good.
5. Electronic Tuner (to find the notes initially): Korg Chromatic tuner
WHAT?!?!?!?!? whoa whoa whoa! You said in previous posts the only way to learn is by interval training that tuners arent accurate! what the?!
It will take about 5000 hours to get through #3 and #4. Since 2hrs/day is always the minimum standard of practice, do the math:
who said it takes 5000 hours? why not 10,000 hours and really do a good job with it?
5000hrs / 2hrs/day = 2500 days
2500 days / 365 days/yr = 6.8 years, rounded to 7 years
It takes about 7 years for an adult self learner to play the violin well enough to play in a community orchestra.
Your way = 7 years, Suzuki method 4-6 years.....hmmm which way is more efficient?
Now, my contribution is rock solid. Pierres, is a bunch of hand waving.
Not quite sure if its "rock", more like loose gravel! buhahaha!
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.
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...loose gravel... ROTFLMAO 
God I love this place... although in the interst of not getting banned from the site, I'll keep my thoughts and comments to myself...
"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein
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Pierre is no longer in an orchestra. Neither am I. So whats the difference?
The biz doesn't care that he is a decent player. Look, the violin competitions that actually pay the winner something beyond chump change age restrict at 30.
Pierre went through the machine and got chewed up and spit out. Washed up in the eyes of the establishment.
I am doing the impossible....starting violin at age 47 with no instructor ever, aiming to be a real virtuoso, not like all those fakes we have today; never been done before in history with the violin. This is rocket to the moon stuff. First time.
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I'm curious about this "biz" or "machine" you speak of, composer.
I've spent 25 wonderful years in music (professionally trained on Trumpet since 1988), playing with numerous bands and orchestras for both pay and as a hobby. I was also a session bass guitarist for studio work for over 10 years. I have yet to see this aspect of the music world! I know some concert orchestras can seem to be unrealistically cruel, but it's pretty rare from my experience.
Now, I have seen musicians with decades of prior experience try out for orchestras and not get hired due to their diminished skills from lack of practice. That is a reality. But I've also seen musician change directions in life and want to do something different with their music. That's really common. Besides, after playing music in the same environment for years at a time, it stops being a career and becomes just a "job." For any artist, that can be maddening.
While I admire you for your goals, I do believe you have a false perception of the music world. Music is what ever you want to make of it. Why leave out the fun in it? It's more rewarding that way.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” ~Benjamin Franklin
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Composer said
Pierre is no longer in an orchestra. Neither am I. So whats the difference?
Not that I need to defend myself but, I still play in orchestras and am often hired to play as the leader. I actually turn down most (orchestra) jobs because I feel the need to play chamber music and charge more than most musicians do here. I play at weddings and events almost every weekend. I enjoy doing something different from what I've done the past 30 years IOW, Fiddlerman.com and Fiddlershop. Also teaching privately and spending time with family.
Pierre went through the machine and got chewed up and spit out. Washed up in the eyes of the establishment.
I gave up my full time position as a section leader in Malmo Symfoniorkester and was given first one year leave of absence which they extended twice, for a total of 3 years, to move back home to Florida. Living in Sweden was great but 20 years is a lot when you have family that you miss elsewhere and great weather. 
During my leave of absence I played in other orchestras internationally and was offered quite a bit of work.
I am doing the impossible....starting violin at age 47 with no instructor ever, aiming to be a real virtuoso, not like all those fakes we have today; never been done before in history with the violin. This is rocket to the moon stuff. First time.
I'm very happy that you have ambitions and I find your posts very amusing which is why I don't do anything about them. You would have a much greater chance of success if you would listen from time to time rather than condemn every bit of advice given to you. As far as playing in a community orchestra, I've known people to play after a year and do better than the experienced players they sit next to. Granted they need to work hard at first but experience comes quickly when you start doing it.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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In what I read, in all the foregoing there is no evidence of anyone being "chewed up", and what is more, Sweden does not have alligators, unlike Florida.
The answer to Q1 is still "one year", typically.
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Composer said
Pierre is no longer in an orchestra. Neither am I. So whats the difference?
The biz doesn't care that he is a decent player. Look, the violin competitions that actually pay the winner something beyond chump change age restrict at 30.
Pierre went through the machine and got chewed up and spit out. Washed up in the eyes of the establishment.
I am doing the impossible....starting violin at age 47 with no instructor ever, aiming to be a real virtuoso, not like all those fakes we have today; never been done before in history with the violin. This is rocket to the moon stuff. First time.
If Pierre is "washed up", then that is my new goal!
Now I know why you imply the impossibility of learning the violin. I hope you reach your goals and can look down your nose at the other "infedels" who attempt such and fail! When you reach the moon, do us a favor and stay there! much love mon!
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.
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http://stringvisions.ovationpr.....ce-expert/
quote:
“I do not think I could ever have made any progress if I had practiced six hours a day. In the first place I have never believed in practicing too much—it is just as bad as practicing too little!"
-Heifetz
and from this site:
http://www.bulletproofmusician.....-practice/
quote from a professional psychologist:
"it requires at least ten years and/or 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to achieve an expert level of performance in any given domain – and in the case of musicians, often closer to 25 years in order to attain an elite international level. Note that the real key here is not the amount of practice required but the type of practice required to attain an expert level of performance."
-He(heifetz) claimed that he practiced no more than three hours per day on average, and that he didn’t practice at all on Sundays.
-"Other great artists have expressed similar sentiments. Violinist Nathan Milstein is said to have once asked his teacher Leopold Auer how many hours a day he should be practicing. Auer responded by saying “Practice with your fingers and you need all day. Practice with your mind and you will do as much in 1 1/2 hours.”
cheers! - ⁰ℨ
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I find the entire "10,000 hours = Mastery" pretty ludicrous anyway.
There is a saying that should be kept in mind about statistics. "Correlation does not imply causation."
But even leaving that mess aside, trying to define some level of achievement or proficiency by time spent is pretty iffy. "One year" doesn't indicate how much work or study is done in that year or what is being worked on or studied, for that matter.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
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Composer said
.....
I am doing the impossible....starting violin at age 47 with no instructor ever, aiming to be a real virtuoso, not like all those fakes we have today; never been done before in history with the violin. This is rocket to the moon stuff. First time.
I wish You success with your goal! That would be awesome!!! Can't wait to see You as a virtuoso on a big stage!
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Mad_Wed said
Composer said
.....
I am doing the impossible....starting violin at age 47 with no instructor ever, aiming to be a real virtuoso, not like all those fakes we have today; never been done before in history with the violin. This is rocket to the moon stuff. First time.I wish You success with your goal! That would be awesome!!! Can't wait to see You as a virtuoso on a big stage!
I'd settle for "Mary Had a Little Lamb" from a basement - at least that would prove he's a troll who actually plays the violin instead of just a troll.
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This thread ist gets better and better. Keep it up my wonderful Fiddlerman family. This site has it all...intrigue, education, humour, family squabbles. And then some more education. I love it.
I am amazed at how old people of my age are.....
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TerryT said
This thread ist gets better and better. Keep it up my wonderful Fiddlerman family. This site has it all...intrigue, education, humour, family squabbles. And then some more education. I love it.
LOL, I think we all have that ONE relative, Terry! 
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” ~Benjamin Franklin
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I'm not impressed with statistical math. My stats teacher back in my college days showed me how ridiculously useless stats really are, as they are just too easy to manipulate or be wrong completely. So anytime I see a stat that shows the 'average' of anything, I automatically dismiss it.
Trying to shoehorn people into a set of timeframes for when things are supposedly done is pointless. People develop at their own speeds. I've come in at 30 years old off the street with almost zero musical experience (a failed attempt at guitar almost 5 years ago now) and have begun reading music within a few days. I'm not great at it but I can figure things out. I'm sure there are others who looked and got it immediately. And I'm sure there are some that take significantly longer. That's the joy of being a biological organism.
One of the best guitarists I knew in college was self-taught. He had a remarkable ability to pick up instruments at random and learn to play it very well within a week, incorporating them into his band. Sadly due to family circumstances combined with depression, he simply quit college (musical school) and went back to work in his hometown. I fully believe if he'd have been able to stick with it, he would have been something big.
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I am doing the impossible….starting violin at age 47 with no instructor ever, aiming to be a real virtuoso, not like all those fakes we have today; never been done before in history with the violin. This is rocket to the moon stuff. First time.
I'd be interested to know who you think are fakes, and why.
Mr Jim
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Mr. Jim, all of them big names are pretend artists. Today's successful "serious classical artists" are either clowns (eg pianist lang lang) who make funny faces while making lots of mistakes, marketing dream boats (eg. Mutter), protected insider racketeers (too numerious to mention), or at best museum curators (hahn). What made classical music successful was improvisation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.....rovisation
Throughout the Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, and Romantic periods, improvisation was a highly valued skill. J.S. Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, and many other famous composers and musicians were known especially for their improvisational skills.
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The problem here is that people want to learn Trick Violin like every other instrument they have taken up. But, there is no Alfred all in one course for Violin like there is for piano, or guitar. It doesn't work because violin has difficult technical elements which can't be skirted around. The other problem is physiological. You have to practice a lot of time consuming mindless left hand finger exercises just to get strong and independent fingers. Usually, this is a thing to avoid on the piano (because it produces a rigid hand) in addition to unmusical habits but on violin its necessary, imo.
So, Pierre has to be vague in his responses. Reality isn't something the Trick [insert instrument here] artists want anything to do with.
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